Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Despite our best efforts there's still no trace of MJK's parents, no trace of her dead husband, no trace of her alleged child, no trace of Mrs Buki, no trace of her brother, no solid clues to her past, no agreement as to her description, and no reported agreement regarding her name.

Surely by now this should be raising red flags.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

It's not normally this frustrating!

[PaulB]

Well, I'm still interested in what appears to be a connection between the nickname Jonto and the surname Johns(t)on.

My real point was that in all the pension records I looked at, none of the men named Kelly, serving in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards in 1888, seem to fit what we would expect.
Ages and birthplaces are given and also names and addresses of the next of kin but nothing seems to jump out with any of them.

You must be able to live with the frustration that is Ripper research by now!

[Debra A]

The trouble with nicknames is that they sometimes don't reflect anything obvious.

Well, I'm still interested in what appears to be a connection between the nickname Jonto and the surname Johns(t)on.

My real point was that in all the pension records I looked at, none of the men named Kelly, serving in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards in 1888, seem to fit what we would expect.
Ages and birthplaces are given and also names and addresses of the next of kin but nothing seems to jump out with any of them.

[PaulB]

I think that's where this thread first came in, Paul!
I should have said no man named Kelly in the Scots Guards who fits what we would expect of 'Johnto.'

The trouble with nicknames is that they sometimes don't reflect anything obvious.

[Debra A]

I think that's where this thread first came in, Paul!
I should have said no man named Kelly in the Scots Guards who fits what we would expect of 'Johnto.'

[PaulB]

I know, Paul. I've no doubt some records are missing too.

I have no expert knowledge of how these military records work so I'd welcome some guidance from anyone who does, I may be totally wrong but I just got to thinking that if the Muster Rolls (Are these annual lists of those serving in a certain regiment that year?)survive from 1888 it's unlikely that just a couple of names are missing from them? And if they tally with the pension records then both would seem to be full for the period we are interested in and that brings us back to square one? No Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888.

That's my feeling too, but I also checked for John Kelly (thinking that Barnett may have transposed the names of father and son, and, of course, that the brother was called John would explain 'Johnto'.

[Debra A]

I know, Paul. I've no doubt some records are missing too.

I have no expert knowledge of how these military records work so I'd welcome some guidance from anyone who does, I may be totally wrong but I just got to thinking that if the Muster Rolls (Are these annual lists of those serving in a certain regiment that year?)survive from 1888 it's unlikely that just a couple of names are missing from them? And if they tally with the pension records then both would seem to be full for the period we are interested in and that brings us back to square one? No Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888.

[Chris Scott]

As there have been many records added to Ancestry since I did these searches some years back I looked again today
The only record I could find (allowing for the area of interest and rough time period)was a birth in 1900 (Quarter 4) in St George in the East of a child named Kasche Buki. Not having checked I do not know if this child was make or female but as this was only 12 years after the Kelly murder it might be worth a look.

[PaulB]

Paul, I've just been giving this a little more thought. I was under the impression that the list Neal Shelden compiled, that I posted at the beginning of the thread, was made from the Muster Rolls for the 2nd battalion Scots Guards 85-88. The records I checked those names against were the Chelsea Pension Records from the Chelsea Hospital and I was able to find all the names on the Muster Rolls in the full pension records, plus extras. Wouldn't that suggest that the pension records are full for that period if two separate sets of records match?
Or am misunderstanding something?

I dunno, Debs. Just passing on what I was told 30 odd years ago.

[Debra A]

Mrs. Booty, anyone?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=906&page=2

P.S. This is also a hint that we might carry on this interesting Mrs. Buki discussion over there too?

[Debra A]

Debs,
Having waded through my Kelly files, my recollection that material had gone missing proved correct insofar as the Regimental Archives are concerned.
On 18 November 1980 I was informed by Major J Hughes of the Scots Guards: 'During the various moves of our Regimental Archives and the two great wars, quite a number of our records were either lost or destroyed...'

Paul
(I posted this on another thread by mistake)

Paul, I've just been giving this a little more thought. I was under the impression that the list Neal Shelden compiled, that I posted at the beginning of the thread, was made from the Muster Rolls for the 2nd battalion Scots Guards 85-88. The records I checked those names against were the Chelsea Pension Records from the Chelsea Hospital and I was able to find all the names on the Muster Rolls in the full pension records, plus extras. Wouldn't that suggest that the pension records are full for that period if two separate sets of records match?
Or am misunderstanding something?

[Chris Scott]

I remember from way back a note to myself that the surname BUKI did exist, but simply could not be found in the context of London in the late 1880s.
Buki was/is a Hungarian name and these occurrences of it

Buki (3), Büki (43), Buki (1), Büki (1), Buki (1), Büki (2), Buki (1), Büki (45), Buki (1),

are noted on the BU- surname page at:
RadixIndex : Hungarian genealogy and local history databases

which can be found at

http://www.radixindex.com/surnameindex/surnameindex_bu.shtml

This is a subsection of the site entitled
RadixIndex : Hungarian genealogy and local history databases
at

http://www.radixindex.com/

There is a genealogical thread from 2000 on this very question of the Hungarian name BUKI and its variants at

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.ceeurope.hungary.general/2964.2966.2974.3024.3026/mb.ashx

The initial message is as follows:
Buki surname variations Suzanne (View posts) Posted: 2 Mar 2000 12:00PM GMT
Classification: Query


Hi Linda,

Janos Bogardi, aka Radix, has a database he has compiled of the craftsmen and shopkeepers in Hungary at the turn of the century. For me, it has become a fantastic reference for variations of the spelling of surnames. I suggest you go to his index for the letter "B" at this site:

http://www.radixindex.com/public/ipab.shtml

Here you will find several different spellings for your Buki/Bukki/Bukky etc. surname.

Spend some time reading about this database; since there are several "hits" here, it may be worth investing the 20 bucks to see if any of these can provide you with some new leads. You can even put in the different names and find what area they are from to see if anything matches.

As far as doing census, passenger record, etc. types of research, the soundex code will remain the same.

Hope this helps,
Suzanne

In the listed replies the most common variants seem to be Bukki and Bukky, both listed as with and without an umlaut over the U.

If I gave the impression in the research notes I posted that I thought the surname BUKI never existed, my apologies. What I meant to convey was that my searches at the time had failed to find any occurrence of it in London the late 1880s.
Chris

[Debra A]

I still think Buchi for Bucke is an odd spelling too, but it's there in the 1881 London census. Luckily there's a forename and place and date of birth for anyone looking for Emily to be able to claim her by, unfortunately there isn't with Mrs. Buki, so Mrs Buckey is a possibility (which I think we all agree on don't we?) until we know different?

[curious]

My only concern is that the census never lists any lodgers with the Buckey's.
Paul

This seems very telling and gives me more pause than a spelling glitch.

However, perhaps during a particularly rough patch, they tried borders for a short period of time and it did not work out.

But, of course, no way to know that . . .