Kellys in the Scots Guards

[curious]

It is to journalists, Curious, and was especially so during the late-Victorian era when standards were more rigorous than they are nowadays.

Look, I really don’t know about this one. It may prove to be the case that ‘Mrs Buki’ really has been identified. The problem for me is that, as Simon made clear in an earlier post, he could trace no-one by the name of Buki during the relevant timeframe. Given the rarity of this name, therefore, I find it difficult to accept that a seasoned reporter would have heard the name Buckey and assumed its correct spelling to be Buki. The equivalent rendering would have been Jownz for Jones. Thus, as things stand, I find the Buckey as Buki explanation more than a little implausible.

I agree with you that we can not be certain, and I am not totally convinced either way. I just know what I have run into researching genealogy and what I encounter with people at work.

It is often mentioned here how crowded the area was, etc. I wonder how much their neighbors, associates, etc. would have known or cared about the spelling of the name.

[curious]

Hi Curious,

True story from the 1980s: a neighbour of ours was telling us down the pub how he went to open a bank account but came away very pissed off and still without an account. He had to complete a form with his full name and put his middle name down as 'Timofy' [sic]. The cashier pointed out that this was incorrect and should be spelled 'Timothy', to which he replied, before storming out: "Whose f---ing name is it anyway?"

Love,

Caz
X

how funny. Mothers give names because they want their perfect little angel to have a name all its own. Then it gets misspelled for all its life. And Mama gets mad. People are so funny.

[Garry Wroe]

Spelling is not that important to most people.

It is to journalists, Curious, and was especially so during the late-Victorian era when standards were more rigorous than they are nowadays.

Look, I really don’t know about this one. It may prove to be the case that ‘Mrs Buki’ really has been identified. The problem for me is that, as Simon made clear in an earlier post, he could trace no-one by the name of Buki during the relevant timeframe. Given the rarity of this name, therefore, I find it difficult to accept that a seasoned reporter would have heard the name Buckey and assumed its correct spelling to be Buki. The equivalent rendering would have been Jownz for Jones. Thus, as things stand, I find the Buckey as Buki explanation more than a little implausible.

[PaulB]

Hi Curious,

True story from the 1980s: a neighbour of ours was telling us down the pub how he went to open a bank account but came away very pissed off and still without an account. He had to complete a form with his full name and put his middle name down as 'Timofy' [sic]. The cashier pointed out that this was incorrect and should be spelled 'Timothy', to which he replied, before storming out: "Whose f---ing name is it anyway?"

Love,

Caz
X

Shouldn't that have been, "Whose th---ing name is it anyway."

[caz]

Sometimes. But I can promise you that very often even family does not know how to spell names or know exactly where a family member is living. I have worked in a newspaper for more than 20 years. If a bride or anniversary story has a name spelled in a peculiar way, we contact our contact to double check, but we take their word for it, even if we are 99.9 percent sure it is wrong. I had one Mother (working in an insurance company by the way) who spelled the name of her daughter 2 different ways on one form. When I called to check, she spelled it a third way. She had to call her daughter to get the correct spelling. Of course, I have known her since school days and she was always spacey.

YES, this is the most extreme example I can come up with in 22 years.

But very, very often we hear "spell it however you think it should be."

Spelling is not that important to most people.

Hi Curious,

True story from the 1980s: a neighbour of ours was telling us down the pub how he went to open a bank account but came away very pissed off and still without an account. He had to complete a form with his full name and put his middle name down as 'Timofy' [sic]. The cashier pointed out that this was incorrect and should be spelled 'Timothy', to which he replied, before storming out: "Whose f---ing name is it anyway?"

Love,

Caz
X

[Debra A]

Thanks for the information, Paul.

[PaulB]

Although she wasn't in the Scots Guards; I did notice that the Emily Buchi listed in London on the 1881 census was a Bucke back home in all the Swansea records.
Just mentioning this because I thought Buchi was an odd spelling choice too.

Debs,
Having waded through my Kelly files, my recollection that material had gone missing proved correct insofar as the Regimental Archives are concerned.
On 18 November 1980 I was informed by Major J Hughes of the Scots Guards: 'During the various moves of our Regimental Archives and the two great wars, quite a number of our records were either lost or destroyed...'

Paul
(I posted this on another thread by mistake)

[Debra A]

Although she wasn't in the Scots Guards; I did notice that the Emily Buchi listed in London on the 1881 census was a Bucke back home in all the Swansea records.
Just mentioning this because I thought Buchi was an odd spelling choice too.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs.
May I ask, when you pointed out the difference in names (in red), were you referring to a confusion of the numbers, or that these soldiers might have enlisted under different names?



Thanks, Jon S.

Hi Jon.
The numbers I used were from a list posted by Neal Shelden a few years ago and some of the first few soldier numbers didn't relate to the name Neal listed next to them but the man below, so they were in fact all Kelly's and covered the whole list, apart from the first one.

There was one Kelly file where it was noted that two different names had been used to enlist in two different Regiments, deserting one and giving a false name when enlisting again. I noted this in the notes I put underneath the individual names. Offhand, James Curden alias Kelly?

[PaulB]

Mrs Long lived in Church St. but the press reported it as Church Row, no-one objected there.



Lawende/Lawrence, Venturney/Van Teurney, Baul/Paul, I think we're on safe ground, don't you?


A pretty reasonable parallel (Buki/Buckey) and quite in keeping with the minor spelling errors already given in the press. Of course, it may be difficult to shift preconceived ideas held by some.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

Hi Jon
After nearly a quarter of a decade of having Keith Skinner perched on my right shoulder telling me to check, double check and triple check my facts, I'm afraid that I always err on the side of caution, but, as you say, press reports are littered with so many examples of this kind that we can't really dismiss Mrs Buckey. My only concern is that the census never lists any lodgers with the Buckey's.
Paul

[Wickerman]

Hi Debs.
May I ask, when you pointed out the difference in names (in red), were you referring to a confusion of the numbers, or that these soldiers might have enlisted under different names?

Here are my first couple of results [selected details from more extensive records and shown in red] from cross referencing the soldier numbers with the Chelsea pension records:

6192 James Kelly (discharged)
Number attached to John Wells .....

5857 James Kelly
This number is linked to William Kelly .....

7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)
This number is linked to Michael Kelly .....

Thanks, Jon S.

[curious]

Family, neighbours, associates. Knocking on doors is what reporters do.

Sometimes. But I can promise you that very often even family does not know how to spell names or know exactly where a family member is living. I have worked in a newspaper for more than 20 years. If a bride or anniversary story has a name spelled in a peculiar way, we contact our contact to double check, but we take their word for it, even if we are 99.9 percent sure it is wrong. I had one Mother (working in an insurance company by the way) who spelled the name of her daughter 2 different ways on one form. When I called to check, she spelled it a third way. She had to call her daughter to get the correct spelling. Of course, I have known her since school days and she was always spacey.

YES, this is the most extreme example I can come up with in 22 years.

But very, very often we hear "spell it however you think it should be."

Spelling is not that important to most people.

[Bridewell]

Although this search threw up a number of women in the East End - such as Rose Buckey aged 24 living in a lodging house in Osborn Street, Sarah Buckee aged 37 born in Shoreditch and Mary Buckey aged 27 living in Bath Place, Shoreditch - there was, in fact, only one woman living in the area in which I was interested.

Her name was Matilda Buckey and in the 1881 census she is listed as living at 1 George Street. The full household as reported in the census return is as follows:

Head - Alfred Buckey aged 52 born Bethnal Green, a tea cooper.

Wife - Matilda Buckey aged 46 born Bethnal Green, a silk weaver.

Their children are listed in 1881 as Alfred aged 20, a cabinetmaker, Matilda aged 19, a silk weaver and Walter aged 15, a scholar. All three children are listed as born in Bethnal Green.

Looking back to the 1871 census, we find the family living at a barber's shop at 29 Club Row, Bethnal Green. The household listing shows the following:-

Head - Alfred Buckey aged 42 born Spitalfields, a tea warehouseman.

Wife - Matilda Buckey aged 37 born Bethnal Green, a silk weaver. Their children in 1871 are listed as Alfred aged 10 and Walter aged 5, both born in Bethnal Green. We now come forward to the 1891 census return i.e. the one following the Kelly murder. If the speculation above as to why Mrs. Buki did not come forward has any truth in it, we would expect to find that Matilda Buckey had either moved to another area or was deceased. The Buckey household listed in 1891 as living at 53 Seabright Road, Bethnal Green, and details are given as follows:
Head - Alfred Buckey aged 60 born Bethnal Green, silk weaver. Alfred is listed as widowed. The only one of his offspring still listed, as living with him is Walter aged 24 whose occupation is now listed as a groom and coachman.

Just for the sake of completeness, the younger Matilda Buckey who reappears in the 1881 census after being apparently absent in 1871, was then one of a large number of small-pox patients staying at Ascot Priory at Winkfield in Berkshire. She married an Alfred Duggin , Coffee Roaster, on Christmas Day 1884 when the address of both bride and groom is given as 1, George Street. I'm guessing this would be about the time that MJK moved to London. The female witness was one, Alice Beadle. The most likely candidate for her was just the right age to be MJK. Unfortunately she was born in Greenwich and can be traced through to her death in 1945!

Regards, Bridewell

[Garry Wroe]

Not really hard to believe. The reporter would have likely depended on his source for the spelling. Since Mrs. Buckey would have been dead at that time there was no way to call up and ask, "Remind me again how you spell your name. . . "

With whom would he have checked?

Family, neighbours, associates. Knocking on doors is what reporters do.

[Wickerman]

And you have every reason to be and should be. So am I. The Star refers to St. George's Street, Mrs Buckey lived at no.1 George Street.

Mrs Long lived in Church St. but the press reported it as Church Row, no-one objected there.

Mrs Buki was spelled Buki, and Mrs Buckey was spelt Buckey... Why should we assume they were one and the same?

Lawende/Lawrence, Venturney/Van Teurney, Baul/Paul, I think we're on safe ground, don't you?


A pretty reasonable parallel (Buki/Buckey) and quite in keeping with the minor spelling errors already given in the press. Of course, it may be difficult to shift preconceived ideas held by some.

Best Wishes, Jon S.