Mjk

[Fisherman]

True, Jon - letīs relish the moment!

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Absolutley, Christer.

Blimey, it`s been a while since we`ve agreed!! :-)

[Fisherman]

Yes, Jon, I think it is hard to imagine the conditions under which these people lived, so close to us in time, but so very far away in many other respects.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

The young and attractive Frances Coles was wandering around, at her cost, at about that same time.

She immediatley went to buy a meal after one encounter down Leman St, and after that went wandering towards the docks.

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Kelly was young and by contemporary accounts, attractive. Would she need to go out at 2am to pick up a punter?"

She was way behind with the rent, we know that much. Apparently her relative youth and good looks had not prohibited that development. She therefore must have needed money. Of course, that must not mean that she needed to go out specifically at 2 AM (or 3 ...) to shape up economically. But the incentive would have been there, we know that much.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Actually reading Richard's post I will make another point. Kelly was young and by contemporary accounts, attractive. Would she need to go out at 2am to pick up a punter?

I have always wondered whether the Ripper's choice of victims was to do with a preference for middle-aged prostitutes, or whether they were the unfortunate vicitms because they were the only ones available in the early morning because they were the ones who had no other choice.

I suspect the latter.

[Sally]

Sorry Richard, we crossed posts there

[Sally]

..she was a street walker and as such HAD to go out at that time. Initiating contact with strange men was what it was all about.

Indeed Jon. By the time Hutchinson gave his statement to the police, that was common knowledge. Whether she had to, or indeed did, go out again on the night of her death is another matter, I think.

I think Richard is right - she was scared of the Ripper like any other woman forced on to the streets would have been. To go home from the pub with a man - whom she may have known, or not, we can't tell - relatively early, when there were still a lot of people about, is one thing. To go out in the far quieter early hours of the morning, pick up a stranger - if he was such - and take him back to her room is another.

To my mind, something is not right with the story. Perhaps she was foolhardy, and it cost her her life - perhaps Astrakhan Man was real and she did know him, making a fatal mistake in taking him back to her room; perhaps Hutchinson invented him, for reasons unknown, and it was actually Blotchy who killed her; or perhaps those who suspect Hutchinson are correct, and he did it.

I suspect that we may never know the truth.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
I was not disputing ,that she was into prostitution, but that was not my intended meaning ''A woman like Kelly'' as my post explained .
I would dispute that she had to go out at ''that time''.. we are talking about a lone trek at 2am , on dangerous streets , when she had already been out PM on the 8TH.
She does not fit into the Nichols -Chapman- Eddowes bracket of having no choice being on the streets, Kelly had her room, and I would dispute that she had no option, but to venture out at 2am unaccompanied , when all she could hope to find was empty streets and possibly ''Jack''.
She apparently [ according to court resident Lottie] was safety concious and tried not to walk out alone, especially at non populated times, she was verbal, remarking to Mrs McCarthy'' He is a concern is he not''.just 24 hours previous.
If Hutchinson 's tale is true,[ which I accept] then Mary did venture out, but with the sole purpose of meeting someone, and I would suggest that it was prearranged,, for whatever purpose ?
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

It was actually not a reference to a street walker, it was reflecting on her knowledge of events , one could say ''being paranoid'' of danger, which she apparently was.

But, she was a street walker and as such HAD to go out at that time. Initiating contact with strange men was what it was all about.

[Sally]

Richard - we all have our 'Cross' to bear

Enough...

Now then, MjK...

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally,
That will be a ''double cross'' ha
Richard

[Sally]

Hi Lynn

Need to correct on two counts here. I tend to think of "MJK" as one of Sir Ed's informants--not really a Fenian sympathiser. Also, if Millen were A-man, we KNOW he was a British agent, and since around 1867.

Ok, thanks for correcting me! But Kelly was a prostitute - if she was an informant, surely she'd have been paid for that service? Prostitution was the last - often only - resort of those who had little choice if they wished to survive - not a career choice.

Hence, if A-man were there to meet Kelly--which I find likely--it might have been as a warning.

If you find the first part of your statement likely, then of course you require a reason in order to support it. But, I am bound to ask, as warning against what?

We know that:

1. Sir Ed had met Michael Davitt in Paris around mid-October. It was then that Sir Ed swapped some information with Davitt so that he would promise to be mum at the Parnell commission about to meet.

2. Parnell mistook Alexander Sullivan as a nice Irish patriot. He would share information with him on occasion.

3. Sullivan ran the break away "Triangle Faction" of the Clan-na-gael." He was accused of ordering the "removal" of Dr. Cronin. But he escaped the murder charge--in fact, the second murder charge in his life.

4. Davitt then lured John P. Hayes to Paris and pried information from him at revolver point.

Interesting - yes no demonstrable connection with Kelly.

Very well. Have you read his complete description? Have you seen his photo or sketch?

I believe I have, I think in fact that you kindly supplied a link for me in the past. I was very interested to read that description, due to the possibility that he did indeed closely resemble Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man. I think I saw most (if not all ) of those similarities as generic.

But I have thought about a great deal of other things since then, so perhaps I am mistaken. If you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction, I'll gladly have another look - I certainly wouldn't want to pronounce with confidence on any matter without full possession of the facts.

Thanks for your reply Lynn

[Sally]

Hi Sally,
Be careful you will get him ''Cross''
Regards Richard.

Richard - I'll 'Cross' that bridge when I come to it..

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally,
Be careful you will get him ''Cross''
Regards Richard.