Mjk

[Sally]

Hi all

Hutchinson's account is derivative in many respects. Several aspects of his account echo very closely other accounts which had already appeared in the press. Given that fact, I think we are faced with two possibilities regarding Astroman: that there really was a well-dressed man stalking the prostitutes of Whitechapel with a knife-shaped parcel in hand; or Hutchinson invented - or at the very least embellished, his Jewish suspect.

Why would he make him up? Well, anything is possible, but perhaps because he was the man seen by Lewis and decided to be proactive in case the finger of suspicion fell on him; or maybe because he hoped for financial gain.

I don't personally believe that Astroman was real, given all the known facts.

[Phil H]

You are entitled to you view on AM, of course, Richard.

I think the whole description smells - too detailed and "wrong" in the context of the time and length of time when GH was supposed to have seen him.

Sorry to disagree.

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil,
''Spats, for instance, were morning wear ONLY''
I agree, but we should take heed of the overall description, I would suggest that this man was intending to be at the Lord mayors show.
That being the case the ''spats'' were part of his dress, and furthermore he would have been unlikely to have been in a mutilating mood.
We must not forget that Mary was very young and apparently not unpleasant to the eye, and if she informed him of having a room...You will be comfy etc'', then why not shelter for a few hours as a paid guest?
He along with Blotchy could hardly present themselves at a later date..
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

Did Astrakhan Man exist?

There is a rule of thumb in intelligence work that if material seems to good to be true, it probably is. I think GH was describing his idea of a "toff" - possibly based on a shop window dummy. the description is too detailed to be true (IMHO) and wrong in details of the way clothes were worn in 1888. "Spats", for instance, were morning wear ONLY.

We have a pic of Ostrog too, if he is still considered a "suspect".

Phil H

[Scorpio]

Did Hutch play an unwitting role in MJK's death ?.

After considering the possible pre-Tabram scenario, it seems that MJK's accosting of George Hutchison may have been a factor in her subsequent murder. Did Astrakan man witness the exchange?. How would his surliness interpreted this event ?. Would a respectable woman approach men in the street at 2.00 AM ?. If the felt hatted fiend was looking for his special lady of the night, then he may have decided that he had a winner.

[Scorpio]

Post-homicide

It seems that something of a circus gathered outside of 13 Millers Court in the wake of the gruesome discovery. If her killer resided/ worked nearby or he/she had decided to remain in the neighbourhood ( i suggest a quick scrub in the Pub toilet, and then a few doubles to calm himself down ), did they join the excited crowds and saviour his/her achievements?.
Peter Kurten and David Berkowitz both enjoyed soaking up the post-homicide scene ambience.

[lynn cates]

discourse

Hello Malcolm.

"1.... we have no idea exactly what any of the suspects looked like."

Surely we have photographs of both Druitt and Tumblety?

"2....No idea at all what GH looked like."

Perhaps a bit too strong? How about, "Although we cannot be sure of GH's exact likeness, the contemporary sketches may indicate his general features"? [If I were being a bit roguish, I'd say, "Go look at Toppy."]

"3....Organs being removed is very odd."

Yes. But:

1. Let's not dismiss too hastily Trevor's thesis.

2. Recall that a contemporary suspect THOUGHT he was working with sheep heads and internal organs. If, as I suppose, Kate were the one TRUE copycat, could organ removal, on some scale or other, be realistically avoided?

"JTR is almost definitely not LE GRAND"

In fact, I would claim that any token of the type:

"X was not JTR"

would be true for any value of X, simply because there was no JTR.

But this should not be conflated with the claim, "LeGrand did not kill any of the C5." I believe there is a good chance he killed one.

"[He] was not a major suspect at that time"

Neither were Druitt nor Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

the trouble is we dont know what GH looked like and until we do, we cant say that he didn't resemble the A.Chapman sighting, dont forget that she didn't see his face.

this JTR mystery is a dit of a disaster, we dont have nearly enough info on GH to nail him and no leads after MJK.... THE CASE GOES COLD.

we havent even got the basics right:-

1.... we have no idea exactly what any of the suspects looked like
2....No idea at all what GH looked like
3....Organs being removed is very odd
4....the mutilations suddenly stopping is very strange too
5....JTR did not carry on living in this area after 1889.

JTR is almost definitely not LE GRAND, he's still around and was not a major suspect at that time, so there's no need for him to stop mutilating is there !

i think the police got close and the killer maybe left, or he finished what he set out to do and moved on, it looks like he had enough of Whitechapel.

[lynn cates]

good points

Hello Malcolm.

"I'm at the stage now where I can't take JTR any further without tackling this from another angle."

I say, I know that feeling.

"1.....I doubt GH was in the same area as the A.Chapman suspect, and it looks as if she went with him to have sex"

I share those doubts

"2......Eddowes looks like someone similar to GH or as an example only, JOE BARNETT......but definitely not similar to the A.CHAPMAN suspect."

Good, good.

"so at these 2 crucial stages, where it's very hard to argue that these suspects aren't JTR, we have two totally different suspects seen."

Ah!

"GH did not kill A.Chapman"

Completely agree.

"conclusion :- I would take care of this A.Chapman sighting, because this is almost definitely JTR"

Leather Apron, perhaps? JTR was not yet "born."

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Last sighting Sunday morning, Nov 11....believe this you'll believe everything...

yes this is the one thing you can state as a fact, JTR did not kill her after 8am, this area is way too busy.

in fact, i'm very surprised that he killed A.CHAPMAN when he did, but after 8am is just plain rediculous....what the hell is he still doing looking for a victim at 5 to 6am doesn't this monster know when to quit.

this might be a huge clue, he's not just a mutilator, he's a flipping stay up all night oddball, walking the streets all night, this points back to GH, but he looks nothing like him......HANG AROUND A MINUTE...... do we know if GH was fair or dark, sorry because i'm presuming he's fair, but what happens if he was dark and foreign looking, can somone check this for me, because i'm pretty sure that we dont know what he looks like, only medium height and stout, we dont even know his age?

[Malcolm X]

I think they did look for him for some time c.d. but then disbanded. We probably shouldn't go too deep here though or we might wake up Ben and Fisherman. Heaven forbid!

For some reason, I feel like A-Man could be the key to the whole puzzle...


Greg

for sure Ben will be back, dont forget that he's not allowed to talk about GH till about FEB time
BEN and i were the original GH supporters, but i'm not so sure now.

to be honest it's a close run thing, it's either GH breaking in at 4am or this LA DE DA.

MJK would have to have been blind drunk not to sense danger, because you can still sense danger if you're only moderately drunk, but if she was this drunk she wouldn't have been able to walk up Dorset st, she'd be puking up in the gutter and falling all over the place.

GH behaves oddly, far too oddly and this tells me that he's up to something or that he's a very strange person, i.e i would never wait outside her place for 50 mins etc etc etc..... the list of oddities about him is endless, but this might not be enough to mean that he JTR.

i'm at the stage now where i cant take JTR any further without tackling this from another angle.

1.....i doubt GH was in the same area as the A.Chapman suspect, and it looks as if she went with him to have sex, this suspect could be LA DE DA

2......Eddowes looks like someone similar to GH or as an example only, JOE BARNETT......but definitely not similar to the A.CHAPMAN suspect.

so at these 2 crucial stages, where it's very hard to argue that these suspects aren't JTR, we have two totally different suspects seen. GH did not kill A.Chapman


conclusion :- i would take care of this A.Chapman sighting, because this is almost definitely JTR, it's sheer fluke that she would say no to him and then bump into JTR within the next 10 mins, especially when she said ``yes `` to him.

did Sailor boy kill Eddowes, or did Lawende even see her !......did Sailor boy walk off and JTR quickly jump i, because this guy doesn't look like the foreigner above.

whose JTR is anyones guess but it looks like a foreigner who changes his appearence, he'll be a crafty sod and look like an older version of G.Chapman.

GH based his suspect on the bloke seen by S.LEWIS and Kennedy and just went totally OTT.

for me JTR is either him or G.Chapman...... at the moment

[kensei]

Here's another analogy from modern times- Ted Bundy had no qualms about abducting a woman from the beach at Lake Samamish, killing her, then going back and abducting and killing another one the same day from the same place, all in front of hundreds of witnesses with no disguise to his face whatsoever. Serial killers are a strange lot.

[DVV]

Last sighting Sunday morning, Nov 11....believe this you'll believe everything...

[GregBaron]

Let sleeping dogs lie...

Yeah, it's a head scratcher. Perhaps GH embellished his story to such an extent that the police completely discredited it and saw no point in wasting man power looking for the man he described.

I think they did look for him for some time c.d. but then disbanded. We probably shouldn't go too deep here though or we might wake up Ben and Fisherman. Heaven forbid!

For some reason, I feel like A-Man could be the key to the whole puzzle...


Greg

[DVV]

As far as I'm concern, Hutch and Astrakhan Man vanished at about the same time.