Mjk

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
I also am of the opinion that Mary knew the person who killed her, she would never have taken a stranger back to her room in the middle of the night, she was to paranoid for that.
But it is entirely possible that if her death was later [ daylight morning] then her guard could have been down knowing that the killer was a night owl, and her safety was secure...
I would suggest that she was known to the killer, and known by the victim.
Regards Richard.

[Stephen Thomas]

I firmly believe that MJK knew her killer.

Why on earth do you believe that?

[Scorpio]

I firmly believe that MJK knew her killer;but what could be the nature of that relationship?. Assuming that he was an ex client is to easy and abandons a wealth of possibilities: quack/abortionist, policeman, friend of a friend, and local businessman are a few such possibilities.

[Wickerman]

Was any conclusion reached?; yes,that's a silly question really.

This was only really a suggestion, there was no evidence in support of it except the photograph of her remains. The idea just faded.
It is hard to accept that five medical professionals would not find some evidence of an axe being used. While it is true that the official post mortem has not survived, juicy details were often leaked to the press, this should have been in that category had any of the doctors determined it to have been the case.

Regards, Jon S.

[Scorpio]

I'm going back some years now but in the late 90's we debated this idea that an axe had been used on Mary Kelly, and I'm sure one of the proponents, if not the originator of the theory, was Nick Warren (founder of Ripperana), who was himself a practicing surgeon.

Regards, Jon S.

Was any conclusion reached?; yes,that's a silly question really.

[DVV]

Yes Jon, it was Nick Warren. (Who made this unlikely suggestion, I mean.)

[Wickerman]

Watching a JtR doc the other day, the presenter stated that an axe was used on MJK. Was the idea not mooted by an individual from a medical
background who studied the Millers Court photo and concluded that Miss Kelly's thigh bone looked split vertically. So is the story conjecture and not fact?. Still, interesting theory though; but why an axe?, a whole host of weaponry could have inflicted the suspected injury: a Bowie knife, a Kukri,
a sword bayonet, and probably lots more.

I'm going back some years now but in the late 90's we debated this idea that an axe had been used on Mary Kelly, and I'm sure one of the proponents, if not the originator of the theory, was Nick Warren (founder of Ripperana), who was himself a practicing surgeon.

Regards, Jon S.

[Scorpio]

Watching a JtR doc the other day, the presenter stated that an axe was used on MJK. Was the idea not mooted by an individual from a medical
background who studied the Millers Court photo and concluded that Miss Kelly's thigh bone looked split vertically. So is the story conjecture and not fact?. Still, interesting theory though; but why an axe?, a whole host of weaponry could have inflicted the suspected injury: a Bowie knife, a Kukri,
a sword bayonet, and probably lots more.

[Cogidubnus]

That's the one Jon!

Thanks...knew I'd seen it somewhere

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Quite true Jon...Wasn't it McCarthy's shop that Isaac Jacob, (the chap who stumbled onto the Alice McKenzie murder scene) was heading for when detained by PC Andrews? I thought I'd seen it in the Ultimate Sourcebook, but having checked again, McCarthy's shop isn't mentioned in there...or perhaps it's a different source or witness I'm thinking of?

Good point Dave, I'd forgotten about that. It was the midnight supper Coles had which was on my mind.

This must be what you remembered..

"Isaac Lewis Jacobs said - I live at 12 Newcastle place, and am a boot maker. About ten minutes to 1 this morning I left home to buy some supper in M'Carthy's, in Dorset street."
The Times, 18 July, 1889.

Another report says he went for Cheese & pickles.
I don't know if McCarthy sold hot food (assuming the fish and potatoes were hot)

Looking at the contrary viewpoint I can't really see her at this stage trying to avoid him because of her arrears...she'd bought a candle in the shop only that week hadn't she?

All the best

Dave

Indeed she had.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Those eateries where they sold meat & potatoes were open well after midnight. We have no idea when MJK ate her last meal.

Quite true Jon...Wasn't it McCarthy's shop that Isaac Jacob, (the chap who stumbled onto the Alice McKenzie murder scene) was heading for when detained by PC Andrews? I thought I'd seen it in the Ultimate Sourcebook, but having checked again, McCarthy's shop isn't mentioned in there...or perhaps it's a different source or witness I'm thinking of?

But if McCarthy's did sell hot food, and MJK had a slate with him, then there's a kind of logic in her getting the meal there...and on a cold night why go further than you have to, to get your grub?

Looking at the contrary viewpoint I can't really see her at this stage trying to avoid him because of her arrears...she'd bought a candle in the shop only that week hadn't she?

All the best

Dave

[curious]

But Chapman had an illness that made her as if she was suffering inebriation - she was dying.

Hadn't Coles been on a bender with Saddler? If so, she (and Kate Eddowes) would still have been suffering somewhat, surely.

Phil H

Yes, Chapman was quite ill. I'm not sure how it made her appear.

Saddler was certainly on a bender that unlucky night. Not sure about Coles. Perhaps if he were buying. I looked hastily but did not find any mention of alcohol for her.

[Phil H]

But Chapman had an illness that made her as if she was suffering inebriation - she was dying.

Hadn't Coles been on a bender with Saddler? If so, she (and Kate Eddowes) would still have been suffering somewhat, surely.

Phil H

[curious]

One thing that always interests me is that I believe all the victims were drunk when they died.

Polly Nichols was.

Annie Chapman was not. Doctor could not discover any recent alcohol.

Liz Stride was not. ditto

Kate Eddowes was supposedly sober enough to be let out of jail.

Mary Jane Kelly was.

Martha Tabram -- most likely.

Emma Smith -- perhaps

Rose Mylett -- probably

Alice McKenzie -- most likely

Frances Coles -- not reported, if so.

so, no, not all were drunk.

curious

[Wickerman]

As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?
Regards Richard.

Those eateries where they sold meat & potatoes were open well after midnight.
We have no idea when MJK ate her last meal. Dr. Bond assumed it was just before midnight but there is no record of why he assumed this. Common sense dictates he received his info from the police, but where they got their info from is open to debate.

Mrs Cox was in and out through the night so playing the "horrible weather" card is not consistent with the number of people we know were out and about.
We do have a couple standing outside the Britannia, then there's Sarah Lewis, Mrs Kennedy, Mrs Cox. and of course Hutchinson, all standing or wandering about between 2:00-3:00 am, none of which substantiates a "bad weather" argument.
Kelly could easily have gone out again after her liaison with Blotchy, and especially as now she has money.

Regards, Jon S.