Mjk

[Chava]

She probably ate the fish and chips in the street out of a newspaper (yumm....It's been a while since I ate fish and chips like that! All salty with malt vinegar and crunchy bits on top....)

But I digress!

One thing that always interests me is that I believe all the victims were drunk when they died. Not that it would be an unusual finding among the doss-house-dwellers. But everyone of them except possibly Liz Stride were described as drunk by the last credible witnesses who saw them. I can't believe that's a coincidence. The only one that probably couldn't have been picked up in a gin-palace would be Chapman unless the pubs etc around there were open all night to cater for the market porters.

[Sally]

Hi Richard

The dream being ''sensationalism'' is a fair point, however it was mentioned to Kit Watkins some three years after the event , not in 1888 .[.in print], and considering Lottie had no pre warning of a Canadian reporter interviewing her , she had a vivid imagination .

Interesting Richard - but by then Kelly had no doubt become something of an urban legend. She was also the most romantic of the victims, because she was young, and pretty. We always see more tragedy in the death of the young and attractive - it shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

Also the subject of the dream, being ''Murdered'' is rather apt for Mrs prater's inquest description of the cry,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', and the cry ''Oh murder'' would be a fitting cry ..would you not accept?
I have always offered this as a possible explanation for the crying out at 4am, a repeat of her premonition, especially if she was feeling worried, and possibly alcohol induced,

Yes, very apt. I think the cry of 'Murder' has been shown to have been in common parlance at the time - can't remember where I've seen that, probably there is a thread devoted to the matter somewhere - so perhaps we shouldn't see it as specific to Mary Kelly; more the cry that we might expect if somebody was under threat.

Having said all that, if she did predict her own death, then perhaps Lynn has a point Proving it, as usual, is another matter.

Best regards Richard

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally.
The dream being ''sensationalism'' is a fair point, however it was mentioned to Kit Watkins some three years after the event , not in 1888 .[.in print], and considering Lottie had no pre warning of a Canadian reporter interviewing her , she had a vivid imagination .
Also the subject of the dream, being ''Murdered'' is rather apt for Mrs prater's inquest description of the cry,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', and the cry ''Oh murder'' would be a fitting cry ..would you not accept?
I have always offered this as a possible explanation for the crying out at 4am, a repeat of her premonition, especially if she was feeling worried, and possibly alcohol induced,
''The horrors of drink indeed''
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Sally, yes I think there were reports of crockery, which I suppose covers plates.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Richard

We will then have to agree to disagree on the desperate plight bit.

But I do wonder how she obtained that last meal, or how she bought those drinks down the pub.

I would suggest that Mr Blotchy man may have provided them. And that all signs point to Mary not venturing out again after her encounter with said blotchy. (yes, hutchs A-mann was a total fabrication).

She was extremely inebriated
seemed comfortably settled in with Blotchy (probably knew him)
Food in her belly, more drink in hand
Singing happily
Possibly money in pocket from Blotchy
Looking forward to the big show the next day
Horrible weather
warm fire



The rent could wait

[Sally]

Did he? I wonder what he sold?

Regarding plates:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=15386

There appear to be some in the cupboard in Kelly's room.

[Robert]

I think McCarthy sold meals.

I have never heard of a plate being found in her room, though, so maybe she ate somewhere else.

[Sally]

I tend to believe, we overdo the desperate plight bit.
Yes she was behind with her rent, but she had been so for weeks.
As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?

Yep, I agree Richard.

She had been behind with the rent for weeks - if McCarthy was that concerned over it she'd have been evicted. She wasn't.

As for the drinks and meal - most likely they were bought for her. I believe there was a fish and chip shop nearby - corner of Osborne Street? - a couple of years later, don't know if it was there in 1888, but maybe that's what we're looking at. That or Eels and Mash

After what appears to have been copious amounts of alchohol, more taken back to her room, and food on the way, I find it easier to believe that she eventually simply went to bed. I'm sure most of us have done the same at some point in our lives.

I don't know how much credence we should give the tale of Kelly's premonition - probably simple sensationalism after the fact. If true, however, I might consider her alleged Fenian connections again...

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Yes indeed, a bit like the drink provider in Aldgate in the case of Eddowes.
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

We will then have to agree to disagree on the desperate plight bit.

But I do wonder how she obtained that last meal, or how she bought those drinks down the pub.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
I tend to believe, we overdo the desperate plight bit.
Yes she was behind with her rent, but she had been so for weeks.
As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally.
I would say it's a good bet that Mary was still fearful.
Oral history suggests, that on the very bed she was murdered ,sometime since 30TH sept she had a bad dream that she was being murdered, she had told a neighbour Lottie that it had shaken her,
How ironic if this tale is true, that she should meet her death. on the very bed she had that vision.
No wonder she had sleepovers, and walked about, rather then stay alone in that dingy room, one wonders how many times she had told this tale ,and whose ears it fell upon?
Creepy stuff..
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Sally

I don`t disagree that Kelly had demonstrated concern over the recent murders. My point, in replying to Richard, was that Kelly had no choice but to go out at that time (if she wanted to eat, drink or chuck some money towards McCarthy).

[Sally]

The young and attractive Frances Coles was wandering around, at her cost, at about that same time.

She immediatley went to buy a meal after one encounter down Leman St, and after that went wandering towards the docks.

She was, but not in the midst of the Ripper scare. I suppose it might be argued that it had been a few weeks and people were starting to relax a bit. All the same, evidence such as we have suggests that Kelly was still fearful.

[lynn cates]

sundry

Hello Sally. Thanks.

“Ok, thanks for correcting me!”

Anything for clarity’s sake.

“But Kelly was a prostitute.”

Well, if Barnett’s story were correct. To date, not a single shred of Barnett’s story has been confirmed.

“ if she was an informant, surely she'd have been paid for that service?’

I would have said, “Paid well.” Have you seen the kind of money that Frank Millen commanded? Are you aware of Alice Carroll’s fee?

“Prostitution was the last - often only - resort of those who had little choice if they wished to survive - not a career choice.”

Agreed. But vide supra.

“If you find the first part of your statement likely, then of course you require a reason in order to support it. But, I am bound to ask, as warning against what?”

A warning that there was an information leak and that she were in jeopardy. Actually, this had happened before in a similar network. Incidentally, when Sir Ed received the sack, he argued that, if he were gone, some of his agents would be in mortal danger.

“Interesting - yet no demonstrable connection with Kelly.”

No, only a possible explanation for the timing.

“I believe I have, I think in fact that you kindly supplied a link for me in the past. I was very interested to read that description, due to the possibility that he did indeed closely resemble Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man. I think I saw most (if not all) of those similarities as generic.”

Which, of course, is your privilege. No one can interpret the evidence for us. It is a very private function.

“But I have thought about a great deal of other things since then, so perhaps I am mistaken. If you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction, I'll gladly have another look - I certainly wouldn't want to pronounce with confidence on any matter without full possession of the facts.”

Entirely agreed.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3835&page=43&highlight=astrakhan

It is post #430.

“Thanks for your reply Lynn.”

Don’t mention it. And thank you for your courteous posting and reasoned reflections. Quite refreshing.

Cheers.
LC