Soliciting or night attack.

[Sox]

Kelly was a prostitute. Her clients would have expected some time alone with her. She wouldnt have been much of a prostitute if she were continually interrupted mid way through the sex act. Interrupted sex would eventually lead to no "regulars".

Barnett had been gone from No13 barely nine days, so define 'regular'.

[jason_c]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

Chances are she would not have been visited by anyone at 4am in the morning. All it took was for her client to ask "shall we be disturbed?" and Kelly to reply "No, we shall not". Its a variation of her alleged statement to another client - "you shall be comfortable my dear".

Kelly was a prostitute. Her clients would have expected some time alone with her. She wouldnt have been much of a prostitute if she were continually interrupted mid way through the sex act. Interrupted sex would eventually lead to no "regulars".

[Garry Wroe]

I think it is reasonable to argue (or at least give it a go) that the usual exchange between working girl and client didn't involve singing and ale for hours on end, so she may well have been reasonably familiar/comfortable with him...

I’ve long felt it likely, Claire, that Kelly and Blotchy met in a pub and engaged in a conversation which culminated in Kelly offering the warmth and shelter of her room in exchange for a share of the pail of beer. I also think it likely that Blotchy was a costermonger, Billingsgate employee or docker – someone who would have been required to set out for work at between three and four o’clock in the morning.

The logic for such a surmise is relatively straightforward. Since Blotchy allowed Mary Ann Cox a clear view of his face, it is highly unlikely that he was the killer. If, moreover, we accept that the cry of “Oh – Murder!” marked the onset of the attack on Kelly, it follows that Blotchy had departed the scene by 3-30am at the latest. Accordingly, given that he passed up the opportunity for an additional few hours of warmth, shelter and rest, it would appear that he left as a consequence of a prior commitment rather than personal choice. In this context, the most likely prior commitment for such an obviously working class individual would have been employment related.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Addy]

Hi Ben,

I always thought it was Hutchinson that was seen monitoring the entrance to Millers Court, because he was waiting for Mary Kelly and her client

[Sox]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

All very well and good C.D....assuming of course that the Whitechapel Killer killed, or attacked, every potential victim that he approached. There is every possibility that the killer talked to far more of these women than he attacked. Picking up a prostitute, who then leads him to a place that gives him no chance at all of killing & mutilating her, could have happened to this man many times just in the course of one night, let alone over the months that he was active as a killer.

Killing Kelly inside No13 only marginally reduced the risk of being interrupted/discovered, even with a locked door. Given that she was a prostitute, and that friends/neighbours kept the same hours, that Joe Barnett could call around, that anyone not getting a reply at the door 'could' easily look through the window....I would say that it was extremely risky if it was a planned attack.

However, assessing the risks, in comparison to those taken in the other C5 murders, shows the same total disregard as to his chances of being caught on the job. In fact, he was probably better hidden from prying eyes in the dark corner of Mitre Square, and with a better chance of escape if discovered, than he was in Millers Court.

Taking into account the brief sightings of Chapman, Stride & Eddowes, just before they died, and the locations in which their bodies were found, leads me to think that the women choose the place of attack, simply by taking the killer to a quiet place for sex that also suited his needs as a killer/mutilator. I see no reason why this pattern changes with Kelly, just because she takes him to an indoor location.

[Ben]

If the murderer waited to break into her room to kill her, he went about it the hard way.

Not really, Hunter.

Firstly, a sleeping victim is far easier to subdue than one who is up and about, for obvious reasons, and the act of pushing open a door hardly constituted "breaking" in in the technical sense.

Standing outside to ' scope the scene' so to speak might have brought on suspicion by others.

Yes, but we know someone was seen outside, and he appeared to be monitering the entrance to the court. We also know that other serial offenders have surveyed their crime scenes from a vantage point before attacking.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Addy,

I think that Jack made the decision to kill indoors so that he could have more time to mutilate his victim. I think that he was willing to make that trade off even if it limited his escape. I am not sure that it was a riskier venue per se just different risks.

He might have been observing Millers Court in general since it was known that a number of prostitutes lived there. So he didn't necessarily have to be targeting Mary. I also don't see any significance in Mary's age or height being different from previous victims.

c.d.

[Addy]

Hi c.d. do you mean he observed Kelly for a while before striking? it could explain the "delay" between the double event and her murder. But why would he do that, killing someone indoors would give even more risk.

Protohistorian/Dave, does that mean you think the others were also chosen for a reason instead of randomly? Why do you think that? (I haven't been posting for long so don't know everyone's ideas on the case) As for her height: Stride was also taller than the others. The more striking thing (to me) is the switch from middle-aged women to a younger woman.

[protohistorian]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

Good point C.D.. Respectfully Dave

[c.d.]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

[DVV]

Mainly because you keep filling up threads I read with very very bad presumption and even worse english.

I agree about my English, and am sincerely sorry for that.

Show me the description of Blotchy that points to him being ugly.

Sexy Blotchy, no doubt.
Hence the nickname.

Show me the statement that says Fleming visited Kelly at No13 Millers Court.

Julia's words make it more likely than appointments in pubs. That's all I said and everybody, except you, will agree with that.

Given that Barnett says, in his statement, that he was unhappy about Kelly being a prostitute, and consorting with prostitutes, then it follows that he would not likely have been thrilled about a former lover coming to visit her at their house either. That is speculation based upon a witness statement.

Once again, I never said he knew. And I don't care, this is quite pointless.

And exactly HOW do you know that Barnett did not know about it? Given that Barnett claims to have known Kelly very well, and that Fleming was supposedly 'ill treating' her, it seems unlikely

I agree. Nothing new, though.

This is the second time you have chosen to be insulting

No I haven't. It was a mere joke about Sexy Blotchy.

I will let is pass, again, due to your obvious poor command of the English language.

You are magnanimous in the extreme.

But it will be the last time.

I'm so scared.

I suppose I should remind you, that in the same description, this man is described as having a fresh complextion. And the last time I checked, wearing 'shabby clothes' pointed to being poor or being dressed for work....not being ugly.

If it's about reminding, I'd then remind you that my caricature "ugly" was in reply to a suggested Fleming/Blotchy identity.

[protohistorian]

That would be my premise yes Addy.

I have a couple of problems with that. 1. No one does anything randomly unless that is the specific intention. The modern concept of random did not exist in Victorian society and could not be the targeting modality. 2. Mary Kelly is substantially bigger than the earlier victims. What accounts for the change in target size? Given the modality of earlier attacks, and the victims heights, Mary was 5 or 6 inches too tall for the mode of attack that requires throat access of the victim. Respectfully Dave

[Sox]

To get back to JtR, could it be that he randomly picked out Mary Kelly only to find she had a room to herself? And then "took the opportunity"?

Greetings,

Addy

That would be my premise yes Addy.

[Sox]

Why are you speculating about Barnett being pleased or unpleased by something he wouldn't know?

Mainly because you keep filling up threads I read with very very bad presumption and even worse english.........so I will ask you again:

Show me the description of Blotchy that points to him being ugly.

Show me the statement that says Fleming visited Kelly at No13 Millers Court.

Given that Barnett says, in his statement, that he was unhappy about Kelly being a prostitute, and consorting with prostitutes, then it follows that he would not likely have been thrilled about a former lover coming to visit her at their house either. That is speculation based upon a witness statement.

And exactly HOW do you know that Barnett did not know about it? Given that Barnett claims to have known Kelly very well, and that Fleming was supposedly 'ill treating' her, it seems unlikely

Well, you must wear shabby clothes, sport a thick carroty moustache and have blotches on your face.
Wish you the best with ladies.

This is the second time you have chosen to be insulting in reply to something I have written, and I will let is pass, again, due to your obvious poor command of the English language. But it will be the last time.

I suppose I should remind you, that in the same description, this man is described as having a fresh complextion. And the last time I checked, wearing 'shabby clothes' pointed to being poor or being dressed for work....not being ugly.

[DVV]

Hi Addy,

I just can repeat that she wasn't the only prostitute with private lodgings (there were many ladies as Kelly and Wilson, it seems), that the Ripper hadn't killed since September 30, and that she is likely to be the last victim - at least, once again, in the true Ripper-like style.

Amitiés,
David