Soliciting or night attack.

[c.d.]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

[protohistorian]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

Good point C.D.. Respectfully Dave

[Addy]

Hi c.d. do you mean he observed Kelly for a while before striking? it could explain the "delay" between the double event and her murder. But why would he do that, killing someone indoors would give even more risk.

Protohistorian/Dave, does that mean you think the others were also chosen for a reason instead of randomly? Why do you think that? (I haven't been posting for long so don't know everyone's ideas on the case) As for her height: Stride was also taller than the others. The more striking thing (to me) is the switch from middle-aged women to a younger woman.

[c.d.]

Hi Addy,

I think that Jack made the decision to kill indoors so that he could have more time to mutilate his victim. I think that he was willing to make that trade off even if it limited his escape. I am not sure that it was a riskier venue per se just different risks.

He might have been observing Millers Court in general since it was known that a number of prostitutes lived there. So he didn't necessarily have to be targeting Mary. I also don't see any significance in Mary's age or height being different from previous victims.

c.d.

[Ben]

If the murderer waited to break into her room to kill her, he went about it the hard way.

Not really, Hunter.

Firstly, a sleeping victim is far easier to subdue than one who is up and about, for obvious reasons, and the act of pushing open a door hardly constituted "breaking" in in the technical sense.

Standing outside to ' scope the scene' so to speak might have brought on suspicion by others.

Yes, but we know someone was seen outside, and he appeared to be monitering the entrance to the court. We also know that other serial offenders have surveyed their crime scenes from a vantage point before attacking.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sox]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

All very well and good C.D....assuming of course that the Whitechapel Killer killed, or attacked, every potential victim that he approached. There is every possibility that the killer talked to far more of these women than he attacked. Picking up a prostitute, who then leads him to a place that gives him no chance at all of killing & mutilating her, could have happened to this man many times just in the course of one night, let alone over the months that he was active as a killer.

Killing Kelly inside No13 only marginally reduced the risk of being interrupted/discovered, even with a locked door. Given that she was a prostitute, and that friends/neighbours kept the same hours, that Joe Barnett could call around, that anyone not getting a reply at the door 'could' easily look through the window....I would say that it was extremely risky if it was a planned attack.

However, assessing the risks, in comparison to those taken in the other C5 murders, shows the same total disregard as to his chances of being caught on the job. In fact, he was probably better hidden from prying eyes in the dark corner of Mitre Square, and with a better chance of escape if discovered, than he was in Millers Court.

Taking into account the brief sightings of Chapman, Stride & Eddowes, just before they died, and the locations in which their bodies were found, leads me to think that the women choose the place of attack, simply by taking the killer to a quiet place for sex that also suited his needs as a killer/mutilator. I see no reason why this pattern changes with Kelly, just because she takes him to an indoor location.

[Addy]

Hi Ben,

I always thought it was Hutchinson that was seen monitoring the entrance to Millers Court, because he was waiting for Mary Kelly and her client

[Garry Wroe]

I think it is reasonable to argue (or at least give it a go) that the usual exchange between working girl and client didn't involve singing and ale for hours on end, so she may well have been reasonably familiar/comfortable with him...

I’ve long felt it likely, Claire, that Kelly and Blotchy met in a pub and engaged in a conversation which culminated in Kelly offering the warmth and shelter of her room in exchange for a share of the pail of beer. I also think it likely that Blotchy was a costermonger, Billingsgate employee or docker – someone who would have been required to set out for work at between three and four o’clock in the morning.

The logic for such a surmise is relatively straightforward. Since Blotchy allowed Mary Ann Cox a clear view of his face, it is highly unlikely that he was the killer. If, moreover, we accept that the cry of “Oh – Murder!” marked the onset of the attack on Kelly, it follows that Blotchy had departed the scene by 3-30am at the latest. Accordingly, given that he passed up the opportunity for an additional few hours of warmth, shelter and rest, it would appear that he left as a consequence of a prior commitment rather than personal choice. In this context, the most likely prior commitment for such an obviously working class individual would have been employment related.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[jason_c]

I think it more likely that Jack planned the attack on Mary as opposed to it being a spur of the moment decision. Since it was a change of M.O., he would need to know the likelihood of her being visited in her room, some idea of her neighbors and a strategy for fleeing should he feel threatened. My guess is that he had met her earlier (maybe in a pub) and had gotten a sense of the situtation. If he had spent some money on her it might have made her more willing to open the door to him that night.

c.d.

Chances are she would not have been visited by anyone at 4am in the morning. All it took was for her client to ask "shall we be disturbed?" and Kelly to reply "No, we shall not". Its a variation of her alleged statement to another client - "you shall be comfortable my dear".

Kelly was a prostitute. Her clients would have expected some time alone with her. She wouldnt have been much of a prostitute if she were continually interrupted mid way through the sex act. Interrupted sex would eventually lead to no "regulars".

[Sox]

Kelly was a prostitute. Her clients would have expected some time alone with her. She wouldnt have been much of a prostitute if she were continually interrupted mid way through the sex act. Interrupted sex would eventually lead to no "regulars".

Barnett had been gone from No13 barely nine days, so define 'regular'.

[Hunter]

Not really, Hunter.

Firstly, a sleeping victim is far easier to subdue than one who is up and about, for obvious reasons, and the act of pushing open a door hardly constituted "breaking" in in the technical sense.

If the way the other victims were killed is cosidered, he didn't seem to care. He just waited for the right moment and struck. Being invited into a private room by an intoxicated prostitute would be a right moment and easier than going to any extraneous trouble.

Yes, but we know someone was seen outside, and he appeared to be monitering the entrance to the court. We also know that other serial offenders have surveyed their crime scenes from a vantage point before attacking.

That's right, and he caught attention. These women patroled a "beat" if you will- outside public gatherings, street corners, etc... They picked up their clients and took them back to a place of their choosing. Their pattern of behaviour made him less conspicuous. If he took risk, it was during the mutilations, which he was willing to accept that risk as that was his ultimate goal.

Some more modern day serial killers may have surveyed their crime scenes because the victims were different and the area of their crimes were often more widspread. In this case, it was very local and the victims already had a predictable pattern for the killer to utilize.

Best WIshes,
Hunter


Best regards,
Ben[/QUOTE]

[Garry Wroe]

a sleeping victim is far easier to subdue than one who is up and about, for obvious reasons

And Kelly certainly appears to have been sleeping, Ben. According to Dr Bond, cuts to the sheets, blood pooling on and under the bed, and the arterial blood spray pattern on the wall indicated that she had been lying to the right side of the bed, close to the partition wall when the initial sharp force injuries were inflicted. Her position on the bed also mediates against the view advanced by some posters that she was preparing for, or even in the act of coitus when the attack commenced.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[Ben]

Being invited into a private room by an intoxicated prostitute would be a right moment and easier than going to any extraneous trouble.

Yes, but the very act of targetting a sleeping victim ensured that the "extraneous trouble" of adopting a false guise, inveigling the victim into the desired location, and seeking the opportune moment to take her by surprise is rendered entirely unnecessary.

That's right, and he caught attention. Their pattern of behaviour made him less conspicuous.

He caught considerably less attention than the presumed ripper did in the act of communuicating with his intended victims at Hanbury Street and Mitre Square as observed by Elizabeth Long and Joseph Lawende respectively. He was certainly no less "conspicuous" on those two occasions than the loitering man was when he was seen opposite Miller's Court.

Some more modern day serial killers may have surveyed their crime scenes because the victims were different and the area of their crimes were often more widspread.

I don't see how either of these factors minimise, or even impact upon, the likelihood of Kelly's killer monitering the crime scene in a fashion similar to his modern counterparts. The same basic principle - that of monitering the location with a view to seeking the auspicious moment to enter and attack - surely applies.

Best regards,
Ben.

P.S. Good points, Garry. Agreed all round!

[Ben]

All it took was for her client to ask "shall we be disturbed?" and Kelly to reply "No, we shall not".

That wouldn't reassure me if I was Jack the Ripper intent on bloody murder. I'd prefer to do my own homework and make doubly sure for myself, being mindful of the possibility that the victim's assurances that she would not be disturbed were either an optimistic drink-fuelled assumption, or a flat out lie. Or worse, a trap.

Consider also the behaviour of Mary Cox, who, despite having private quarters similar to those enjoyed by Mary Kelly, still preferred to conduct her client servicing on the streets.

Best regards,
Ben

[Hunter]

Prostitutes lie down on beds for other reasons than sleeping. She may have moved to the right side to allow her client some room to lie down beside her. The doctors agreed that the attack was sudden and unexpected - just like in the other murders. Because he had to attack from the victim's left it would be natural that she would have ended up near the wall in a last defensive position -he, pulling her down afterwards to facillitate mutilation. The sheet could have been used to muffle her as he slashed. In no way does this predispose an unwelcomed entry.

If there was one thing in common with all, and if the medicos are to be believed, they never saw it coming in time to offer any substantial ressistance.

Best Wishes,
Hunter