Soliciting or night attack.

[Addy]

To get back to JtR, could it be that he randomly picked out Mary Kelly only to find she had a room to herself? And then "took the opportunity"?

Greetings,

Addy

[DVV]

As is clear, just from this thread, the premise is that Fleming was visiting Kelly at No13. It hardly seems likely that a Barnett, who is not happy about Kelly consorting with prostitutes, is going to be overly pleased with an ex lover (and one he knows is still fond of her) visiting her there either.

I very well know what Barnett said, but who wrote what is quoted above ?

Why are you speculating about Barnett being pleased or unpleased by something he wouldn't know?
Barnett and Fleming were jealous of each other, and Barnett had certainly been "unpleased "by Julia's words at the inquest.
That's all.

Now would you excuse me for a while, I have a pub to visit and hope to be visited there...

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

I admit to becoming a little tired of this David, so here........

visit verb
/ˈvɪz.ɪt/ v
•
[I or T] to go to a place in order to look at it, or to a person in order to spend time with them

....there we go, that is what the word visit means. Now, show me the statement from 1888 that says Fleming used to visit Kelly at No13 Millers court please.

[DVV]

We are led to believe that Fleming was quite fond of, and continued to visit, Mary Kelly.

Sorry if I misunderstand you here, that's bit unclear to me. Mary was said to be fond of Fleming.

As is clear, just from this thread, the premise is that Fleming was visiting Kelly at No13.

Indeed. "He used to visit her", that's Julia's very words.

It hardly seems likely that a Barnett, who is not happy about Kelly consorting with prostitutes, is going to be overly pleased with an ex lover (and one he knows is still fond of her) visiting her there either.

Certainly so. He was a man like any other in this respect.

If Fleming was still visiting Mary Kelly, then there is no reason to suspect that he was visiting her in her home. Visiting could also mean that he was coming to Whitechapel or Spitalfields to see her, it could also mean he was coming to a pub to see her.

You have the right to speculate. But once again, he "used to visit her", not to "meet her in a pub". Not to say it wasn't the case, at times.

'Blotchy' was ugly: Nothing at all, in the vague description given of the man seen with Kelly, suggests this.

Well, you must wear shabby clothes, sport a thick carroty moustache and have blotches on your face.
Wish you the best with ladies.

So in conclusion, I see Kelly inviting the killer to her room, and I see him attacking her at the opportune moment.

Agreed.


Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

So many inconsistencies, lets start with Mr Fleming.

We are led to believe that Fleming was quite fond of, and continued to visit, Mary Kelly.

We are also led to believe that the main reason that Barnett had left Mary Kelly was that she had taken to prostitution once more, and he was not happy that a certain 'type' of woman was to be found in their room at No13.

As is clear, just from this thread, the premise is that Fleming was visiting Kelly at No13. It hardly seems likely that a Barnett, who is not happy about Kelly consorting with prostitutes, is going to be overly pleased with an ex lover (and one he knows is still fond of her) visiting her there either.

If Fleming was still visiting Mary Kelly, then there is no reason to suspect that he was visiting her in her home. Visiting could also mean that he was coming to Whitechapel or Spitalfields to see her, it could also mean he was coming to a pub to see her.

Mary Kelly had no money for rent: Mary did not pay her rent, that really is not the same thing as her having no money.

'Blotchy' was ugly: Nothing at all, in the vague description given of the man seen with Kelly, suggests this.

Before we ask the question 'Soliciting or night attack' we must ask: Why was Kelly prostituting herself at all? She was clothed, she was fed, she had a bed (that she was not actually paying the rent is irrelevant) and, if the witnesses are to be believed, men were actually giving her money for nothing. What little we know of Kelly hardly seems consistent with the common prostitute that we see Nichols, Chapman, Stride or Eddowes being, i.e. women who were selling themselves to survive. Saying that Kelly 'had her youth' I think is too simplistic, many common prostitutes of the time were young AND having to sell their bodies for a roof over their head or to put food in their bellies.

In my opinion Kelly was a prostitute by choice, not someone forced into it by circumstance. Unlike the others in the C5, I also see Kelly as giving over some of her earnings to men, either protectors or landlords. So in conclusion, I see Kelly inviting the killer to her room, and I see him attacking her at the opportune moment.

[DVV]

David, I'm not sure that we can say that she was entertaining him as a bar hostess et cetera...that's really just surmise, isn't it?

It isn't, Claire, not at all.

She apparently drank with him and sang for him, that fits exactly.

Relationships between men and "pros" aren't of a unique type, far from that !
Women can take benefit of their charms in many ways...There are people who pay just to talk, it's quite common.

Going to a dark backyard with Annie Chapman for 5 minutes was one thing, spending an evening with Mary was another... Still, both were prostitutes.

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

Thanks, Mike...yes, my memory's fading daily! And, yes, although Mary wasn't unusual in having a room, she probably was quite unusual in that she had a room to herself, ie. not shared with anyone. But the amount of time she appeared to spend in pubs that day (the 8th) rather than dealing with clients seems to indicate she wasn't all that bothered with the rent arrears. If she did have clients, there doesn't seem to be any note of money that she made that day being in the room.

David, I'm not sure that we can say that she was entertaining him as a bar hostess et cetera...that's really just surmise, isn't it?

[DVV]

Hi again Claire,

Dissatisfied ?
Not sure at all.
Blotchy had certainly invited Mary some drinks before...
She was entertaining him as a bar hostess, somehow, which is very close to prostitution, and she could get money just like that, given she was young, and Blotchy rather ugly.

As to Fleming, we haven't a full description (and btw, that's the same with Blotchy), but the little we have certainly doesn't fit - color of hair/moustache and age, to begin with.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

One question: do we know from any of her friends that she was in the practice of bringing clients back to the room? Others in the court don't seem to have done.

Claire,

We don't know for sure, but I think it's a very safe bet that when Barnett wasn't around (or even if), Kelly was bringing gents back. We know she arrears on her rent, and either McCarthy knew what she was up to with clients and that she was 'good for it', or he was a very generous soul.

If my memory (fading as it is) serves me right, the other prostitutes, or suspected prostitutes in the Court at that exact time, had husbands, and/or children.

If someone can jump in here, great. Otherwise, I'll do some looking in get back on that.

Cheers,

Mike

[claire]

a rather dissatisfied client, then, if her lengthy sing-song was anything to go by...I think it is reasonable to argue (or at least give it a go) that the usual exchange between working girl and client didn't involve singing and ale for hours on end, so she may well have been reasonably familiar/comfortable with him...

btw, do we have a definitive description of Fleming? If I've seen one, my memory isn't cooperating with me right now.

[DVV]

Hmmm, I think safe to say Blotchy wasn't Fleming (Blotchy's face, age, carotty moustache do not fit...I can't imagine Mary "very fond" of Blotchy), but a mere client.

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

Well, technically, David, Fleming wasn't a client in the strictest sense. And we just don't know that Blotchy wasn't Fleming, or someone else of his status...

[DVV]

Hi Claire,

Apparently, Blotchy was a client that she brang back home.

...and there was also one Joseph Fleming, who used to visit her...

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

Well, with 20 yards of very narrow passageway, you'd need to be pretty sure of finding what you're after up there, but as you say, Michael, there were privies up there, and plenty of people referred to the Court as McCarthy's Rents. So if it was an intruder, it would likely be someone who was sufficiently familiar with the area, and had been there before...which speaks loudly against Mr Astrakhan in all his finery, who surely (surely?) would have been noticed by someone in the past.

One question: do we know from any of her friends that she was in the practice of bringing clients back to the room? Others in the court don't seem to have done.

[protohistorian]

I think the proximity to the passageway of Kelly's room, and the fact that it was the first room one passed on the way to the privy or water pump, and that it was on the first floor, made it the most easily accessible... for rooms of prostitutes. In that regard, it wasn't much different from available yards that were also in the vicinity of privies, coincidently. That could easily make it the scene of just a regular ripper attack as the others. Evidence in the form of statements, believed or not, point to Kelly's solicitation, however.

I'm on the fence here.

Mike

Very good point Michael. I still have some rather large issues with some aspects of the Kelly saga, I have not yet formed an opinion on this issue. Respectfully Dave