Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly

[celticsun]

Hello Celtic. I normally say little about MJK as the complications are enormous--even for one of the C5. But:

1) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave to get some money off Kelly.

Unlikely. I think MJK had already hit HIM up and failed. Inference: she's broke.

2) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave so he could stay with Kelly for the night as it was cold.

Did not Hutch have a lodging? Why wait 45 minutes in the cold?

3) He may have been waiting to rob Astracan.

Possibly. But would it not be unwise later to seek the police and give testimony thereto?

The best.
LC

Hi LC,

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain him waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street. I don't really don't know the particulars of this. Is it a lodging house (pay by the night) or something else? It would be much appreciated if anyone could enlighten me about this. Thanks.

3) My quess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

I too have remained silent about MJK because of the enigmatic nature of the evidence concerning this murder but am tempted to jump into the fire anyway. Fools rush where Angels fear to tread.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Celtic. I normally say little about MJK as the complications are enormous--even for one of the C5. But:

1) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave to get some money off Kelly.

Unlikely. I think MJK had already hit HIM up and failed. Inference: she's broke.

2) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave so he could stay with Kelly for the night as it was cold.

Did not Hutch have a lodging? Why wait 45 minutes in the cold?

3) He may have been waiting to rob Astracan.

Possibly. But would it not be unwise later to seek the police and give testimony thereto?

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Ok, you paint a picture how it was impossible that a man dressed in that garb, could possibly survive in that area , without being accosted by ruffians, or the vigilente committee. But if Hutch was being honest that is precisely what happened.

And if my auntie had bollocks, she'd be my uncle.

It's simple, really. I don't consider it remotely likely that it could have transpired that way, for aforementioned reasons, and that is why I don't believe he was being honest.

Did people of influence in Whitechapel all walk around 'dressed down' on a night out?

A 2.00am. At the height of the ripper scare. In an area well-known for its "vicious, semi-criminal" element.

Yes, I think they did.

What if Astracan was a fearless individual, which if Jack he would have been.

I wouldn't say the killer was a completely fearless individual, no. But it's no use not being fearful if you can't do a damn thing about the negative attention you'd be attracting from potential muggers, vigiliants and wannabe ripper-hunters. You can be fearless of sharks, but they won't stop one eating you if it feels like it. It's not as if a lack of fear eradicates the danger.

We just do not know, but we cannot dismiss Hutchinsons statement without more proof

I can't dismiss it completely without proof, which is why I don't. I just point out the numerous implausibe elements in it.

[Ben]

Hi Kensei,

Whoever Hutchinson may be- I think that Christopher Scott did an admirable job in his book "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?" of establishing through a search of public records who our popular character of George Hutchinson probably was (though not certainly), that being George William Topping Hutchinson

I don't think Chris ever expressed the view in his book that the real Hutchinson was "probably" George William Topping Hutchinson. Only that he is the best known suggested identity, and that comes courtesy of the Ripper and the Royals with included the claim, by the man's son, Reg, that his father saw Lord Randolph Churchill the Ripper and was paid to keep quiet about it. Chris asked me on the podcast what I thought of that particular identification, and I responded to the effect that I considered it highly improbable on current evidence, an opinion that I do not deviate from now. I would respectfully submit that there are plenty of discussions on the identity of Hutchinson, and that it is not immediately germane to a discussion of Astrakhan man's potential culpability in the ripper murders. All I would say is that the infantalization of Hutchinson into some naive, smitten 22-year-old has the unfortunate effect of reducing the whole Kelly saga into the most formulaic of pantomimes, with Hutchinson as the Wishy-Washy/Buttons character (naive, loves the girl, but never gets her) and Astrakhan as the Jafar/Abanazer villain who looks and acts the part in every respect.

I just get the impression that the reality of the situation was a lot less black and white than that, not least because the Hutch-Smitten hypothesis is simply not consistent with his failure to alert the authorities the moment he learned of the murder.

I think that after having been glimpsed by a few witnesses at the prior murder sites dressed in his usual getup of a "dark overcoat and deerstalker or peaked cap," and after having become the most hunted criminal in the world, he had changed his appearance to that of Astrakan.

Sorry, I'm just not understanting the suggested mentality here. Yes, I've been getting away with bloody murder, partially on account of my inconspicuous attire, and to ensure that I continue getting away with it, I'll change all that and adopt the most conspicuous attire imaginable - accessories and clothes that are almost guaranteed to repel the people I want to put at ease, and attract negative attention from the ones I wish to avoid at all costs...It just doesn't convince, and the notion that "A deranged serial killer just might..." doesn't avail. Firstly, a person who gets his kicks from dispatching prostitutes in a brutal fashion isn't necessarily one who throws all logic, common sense and rationality to the wind, and he needn't be "deranged" in the chaotic, disorganized sense.

I stuggle, too, with the "charm" hypothesis, as though the average Spitalfields prostitute needed to be charmed with elegant attire and gold watches to solicit their submission. I'd suggest that they were far more likely to be deterred by such a conspicious outsider, however intoxicated they were, especially if his appearance happened to tally with the popular bogeyman image associated with the ripper. Far more likely to put them at ease was the tried and tested local; the familiar face in the district, which may explain why she was observed taking home the shabby likes of Blotchy.

wanting to look out for her safety

But how could he possibly acheive that be loitering opposite her home, with no view into the room? From that vantage point, he was utterly useless as a preventative measure against her death.

After 45 minutes of watching on this particular night, he gave up.

And never came back, either to see if she was still safe or if she was now alone?

Both of them ended up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer.

It's better than the alternative, which is Jack as the sinister toff of popular lore. You observe that Barnett and Hutchinson both "end up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer" as though their outward normality somehow weakens their candidacy, and that, by extention, in order to warrant the mantle of "world's most notorious serial killer", the individual in question must be some brilliantly clever, conspicious master of disguise. I think that takes us a long way from historical precedent myself.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
Ok, you paint a picture how it was impossible that a man dressed in that garb, could possibly survive in that area , without being accosted by ruffians, or the vigilente committee.
But if Hutch was being honest that is precisely what happened.
Question. Did people of influence in Whitechapel all walk around 'dressed down' on a night out?
What if Astracan was a fearless individual, which if Jack he would have been.
What if we in 2009, are overplaying the risk he was taking , mayby he was known in the area, as a handful.
We just do not know, but we cannot dismiss Hutchinsons statement without more proof.
Regards Richard.

[kensei]

Ok, I'll say this as simply as possible. I think that people are trying to figure out what happened to MJK far too logically. Mary Jane was probably an alcoholic, and when a drunk is drunk logic goes out the window. I really think that that creates a whole dimension of possibilities that do not need to conform to any kind of logic. Even a person who was afraid of the Ripper and intended to be careful could very easily lose every bit of that caution in demon alcohol. The "instant trust" factor that Ben cast doubt on must be viewed in this perspective.

[The Good Michael]

I think Barnett, Kelly, Fleming, and Hutchinson all would have known each other, along with Venturney and Harvey, just by virtue of being in the same area and in similar financial circumstances. They probably all picked hops in season, and vied with and against each other for whatever came their way. This would have included Astrakhan Man (if he existed) because he would have been fair game for each and every one of them.

Cheers

Mike

[Ben]

If hear-say is correct, and Kelly wanted to attend the Lord mayors show the following morning , and If the man dressed in Astracan was the person who had arranged to take her

Again, highly implausible.

Why, if the Lord Mayor's Show was the following morning, should he turn up dressed for the occasion at 2.00am in the morning, in a dismal location, in dismal weather conditions at the height of the ripper scare, with a mug-me gold watch on ostentatious display and a black parcel of potentially knife-shaped dimensions? There just aren't the ingredients there for giving off "instant trust" to Mary, let alone that of the over-zealous wannabe vigilantees and muggers who like gold items but don't like suspicious-looking surly Jewish "toffs". Could the Astrakhan man really have suspected otherwise? Surely he'd want to minimize the chances of attracting interest of the worst kind from anyone else?

If the meeting was pre-arranged, that's even less probable. Kelly could have blabbed about the meeting - and the identity of the individual - to all and sundry. "I'm being picked up in the small hours to go to the Lord Mayor's Show with immaculately-dressed, wealthy Jewish looking bloke", might have raised a few eyebrows as well as alarm bells.

[richardnunweek]

Kensei,
I meant to add in my post, that I disagree somewhat about the innocence of both Josephs, I would not dismiss either one of them at this stage, but Astracan is the obvious.
Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Kensei,
Thank you for a excellent post. I am with you one hundred percent on the identification of GH, and yes he was only two years kellys junior, one tends to forget just how young Mary Kelly was.
I also agree that he fancied her, unless of cause he was a extremely charitable person, he proberly was good to her on a few occasions when he had money, but that is not to say that he used her as a prostitute.
People have suggested that he was waiting for this man to leave so he could spent the rest of the night in her room, I do not subscribe to that opinion, I believe he simply relayed the truth , waited forty five minutes and left, to doss around until 6am,. when his lodgings became avaliable.
Regards Richard.

[kensei]

I will put aside my many theories, which include Barnett, and Maxwells market porter, as possible candidates, not to mention a few others, and take a look at the possibilty that Hutchinson[ whoever he may be] actually saw the killer of Kelly

Whoever Hutchinson may be- I think that Christopher Scott did an admirable job in his book "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?" of establishing through a search of public records who our popular character of George Hutchinson probably was (though not certainly), that being George William Topping Hutchinson, listed in 1901 as being 35 years old, employed as a plumber, with a wife named Florence and two young sons, 13 years after the Whitechapel murders. That would make him just 22 at the time of Kelly's murder. I know that when I was 22 I still had a lot of maturing to do, and was prone to many flights of romantic fancy.

My thoughts on what happened have been challenged before and no doubt will be again. Yes, I think Hutch was "sweet on" Kelly, that he had known her for some time as a friend and had a crush on her. Yes, I think Astrakan Man killed Kelly and was Jack the Ripper. I think that after having been glimpsed by a few witnesses at the prior murder sites dressed in his usual getup of a "dark overcoat and deerstalker or peaked cap," and after having become the most hunted criminal in the world, he had changed his appearance to that of Astrakan. I'm well aware of the arguments that say that such a disguise would have drawn more attention to him in the East End, not less. But this is a deranged mind we're talking about, not a rational one. His decisions do not have to make sense, and he was probably damned lucky not to have been knifed to death himself by some two-bit mugger on the streets of Spitalfields in that getup. How ironic would that have been?

I don't know whether Astrakan was someone Kelly had met before, or whether he had a charm to him and just said something to her immediately upon their chance meeting in Hutch's sight that put her at ease and made her laugh. She was, by witness' statements, quite drunk that night, and in a giddy state it might not have taken much to make her laugh. With her state of drunkenness and how late she was seen to be still up, it seems very unlikely that she would have been able to rouse herself in time to go to the Lord Mayor's show in the morning no matter how much she had wanted to. Too bad Hutch couldn't hear the entire conversation between her and Mr. A. But I do feel that Hutch followed them and watched Miller's Court for as long as he did because of his feelings for Mary Jane, wanting to look out for her safety, and also possibly wanting/hoping to just maybe hook up with her himself if things went his way, thoughts he had probably entertained for a long time. After 45 minutes of watching on this particular night, he gave up.

George Hutchinson and Joseph Barnett- two very unfortunate characters in my view, one a lovelorn friend who still had a lot of growing up to do, the other a frustrated boyfriend who was "on a break" from Mary Jane, not officially broken up. Both of them ended up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer. And Astrakan Man- I think he was a one-time appearance, a disguise worn by Jack the Ripper. But I know that theory is not popular.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben.
If hear-say is correct, and Kelly wanted to attend the Lord mayors show the following morning , and If the man dressed in Astracan was the person who had arranged to take her, then I would suggest that he could have said that.
As for the laughter , I would say that it could also derive from Mary seeing this man in his sunday best that sparked of a comment which brought on laughter.
The strangest aspect of that meeting[ alleged] was [a] Kelly having intentions to go to the Lord mayors show.[b] meeting a man, who not only was dressed for the occassion, but gave off a instant trust to Mary , so much so, that the normal paronoid woman ,walked back to her room , the man with his arm on her shoulder, and a kiss in Dorset street to boot, before allowing this starnger into the darkness of her sordid liitle room.
I would suggest that she knew this person, and if so, the murder was premeditated, and the killer gained instant trust in his unsuspecting victim.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

he never indicated to the police that Astracan was in any way sinister

He couldn't have done, really.

Had he told the police that he entertained suspicions about the man, they would immeditaly have wondered why he simply loitered on the opposite side of the street without enquiring within or alerting a policeman.

Cheers,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Harry,
Just because Hutchinson by his own admission knew the woman kelly, and occasionaly helped her, does not mean that he was a client, neither does it imply that he would have known all of her room habits, and spouse circumstances, he simply told the police that he believed it strange that such a well dressed man was in the area at that time, he never indicated to the police that Astracan was in any way sinister, he simply followed out of curiosity, and I fail to see any suspicious intent in doing that.
We simply must not lose track of this thread. which is named 'Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly?
My opinion is if the police doctors were right of T.O.D then almost certainly, but if they were wrong then Maxwells sighting would be relevant.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

however he may have said something to Mary along the lines of 'I was intending to find lodgings , however with hindsight i am a bit overdresssed for that, they may think I am Jack... which caused both of them to laugh.

Yes, but would she really laugh at that, Rich?

Wouldn't she wonder why he was so well-dressed and yet searching for lodgings in the well known grotspot that was the Northern end of Commercial Street, and this and the height of the ripper scare when tales of sinister Jews and black packages had already been doing the rounds in the papers? And what if we look at it from a hypothetical Jackstrakhan point of view? Is it likely that he would attire himself in that fashion, with those accessories, when it couldn't have escaped his notice that his present physical particulars happened to coincide very neatly with some of the "bogeyman" images that had already been associated with the ripper?

Hi Celticsun,

Your three options are certainly possibles, but taking them in order, I'd have to wonder:

1) Why didn't he retrieve the money, or at least mention it, at the initial (alleged) Commercial Street encounter?

2) Setting aside the issue of his 13-mile hike to London in the certainty that he would not be permitted entry to his "usual" lodgings without a pass, there was at least a lodging house kitchen directly behind him which offered respite from a cold, if not a bed.

3) Possibly, but one has to wonder why he'd give the game away, if that were the case, by mentioning such glittering accessories to the police.

Best regards,
Ben