Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly

No problem Michael!

As for Kelly not being a JtR victim, I've been on the fence for years over that. She breaks the pattern in so many ways that I could absolutely believe she came to a sticky end via someone who needed to get rid of her and fake a Ripper kill. However she was seen with Blotchy-Face before she died. And his description matches the man who tried to kill Ada Wilson as well as someone seen with Eddowes, so I thinkk I"m sticking with Blotchy for the time being...

Im a big fan of thorough scrutiny of the people last seen with the victims and so I agree with you that in this case, he looks to be a good candidate. Perhaps even for other attacks, as you suggest.

That would mean that he either bedded down with his intended victim for some time starting just before 1:30am, or he began killing her when she had stopped singing and her light went out, close to 1:30am. Thats according to Mary Ann as well as Prater. In those 2 scenarios, I dont see the first as being very plausible based on this reasoning, if his intention is to kill Mary, and he is the culprit in some other murders....that also lack "connection" evidence...then sex may have nothing to do with matters that night. So when she finishes singing and tries to get him to leave, he starts in on her. He may have her dead already before Prater climbs the stairs.

Then what woman calls out seemingly from Marys room at around 3:45am that 2 witnesses nearly adjacent to the room itself testified to? If Mary is alive at that time, its my opinion that Blotchy left somewhere around 1:25ish.

If Blotchy left, and somehow Elizabeth didnt notice him exit the courtyard onto the street...maybe he left 10 minutes earlier?.....then Wideawake becomes either the accomplice casing out the location, or the killer sussing out his opportunities.

I realize that viewing Kelly as other than a Ripper victim is difficult for most, I think because so much is made of the fact her torso is the target of most all of the mutilations for one reason, ....but we have circumstances in this case that dont exist in the other cases. Some real tangible differences in that murder. And an ongoing love triangle that we know about.

Cheers Chava

[Chava]

I wonder about someone closer to home Chava, with respect to Mary Jane.... We know that Hutchinson lived at the Victoria Home for Men, we also know that Flemming was a resident at that time, as was Daniel Barnett.

Those 2 men are certainly within Marys inner circle and could provide any information about her to allow someone to represent themselves as a "friend" of Marys.

My speculative sides vacillate between a spurned lover hiding his murder in blood and guts, or something much more speculative ....Marys knowledge of some dangerous people or activities planned that were illegal and very dangerous. That second one might explain an acomplice.

All the best Ms Chava.......and we got snow the day after we mentioned it here, so from now on, no mention of the stuff, ok?

Cheers

No problem Michael!

As for Kelly not being a JtR victim, I've been on the fence for years over that. She breaks the pattern in so many ways that I could absolutely believe she came to a sticky end via someone who needed to get rid of her and fake a Ripper kill. However she was seen with Blotchy-Face before she died. And his description matches the man who tried to kill Ada Wilson as well as someone seen with Eddowes, so I thinkk I"m sticking with Blotchy for the time being...

When I fancied John McCarthy for the Kelly kill--and he is still not completely off my hook but he's almost wriggled free--I thought exactly that. McCarthy or someone else had paid or otherwise persuaded Hutchinson to give a particular description that would take the heat off him. Something like 'Hey Hutchinson, the filth are all over me on this Kelly murder because I'm her landlord. You know I would never do anything like that! But I don't need them prying into my private affairs, so if you could do me a bit of a favour...'

I wonder about someone closer to home Chava, with respect to Mary Jane.... We know that Hutchinson lived at the Victoria Home for Men, we also know that Flemming was a resident at that time, as was Daniel Barnett.

Those 2 men are certainly within Marys inner circle and could provide any information about her to allow someone to represent themselves as a "friend" of Marys.

My speculative sides vacillate between a spurned lover hiding his murder in blood and guts, or something much more speculative ....Marys knowledge of some dangerous people or activities planned that were illegal and very dangerous. That second one might explain an acomplice.

All the best Ms Chava.......and we got snow the day after we mentioned it here, so from now on, no mention of the stuff, ok?

Cheers

[Chava]

I wonder some things about him too cd.....like maybe was he paid by someone to even offer the story in the first place? Like maybe someone who owned and wore often a Wideawake Hat.

Cheers

When I fancied John McCarthy for the Kelly kill--and he is still not completely off my hook but he's almost wriggled free--I thought exactly that. McCarthy or someone else had paid or otherwise persuaded Hutchinson to give a particular description that would take the heat off him. Something like 'Hey Hutchinson, the filth are all over me on this Kelly murder because I'm her landlord. You know I would never do anything like that! But I don't need them prying into my private affairs, so if you could do me a bit of a favour...'

I wonder some things about him too cd.....like maybe was he paid by someone to even offer the story in the first place? Like maybe someone who owned and wore often a Wideawake Hat.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

sanctions

Hello CD. That's an interesting notion. I wonder if there would have been legal sanctions for him afterward? I suppose they could be waived?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

I have to wonder if Hutchinson might have confessed to making up the story so that he could sell it or gain notoriety. Maybe he admitted that he was simply in it for the reward. If he could produce a verifiable alibi for where he actually was that night, he would be off the hook as far as the murder goes.

c.d.

[Chava]

Thanks for the good wishes, guys. It's been a bit of a rocky few months...

But it's so nice to be back on the board!
xxxxChava

Hi again all,

I second the best wishes to Chava and her husband....and her delight at the lack of snow this November in Toronto.

I think Celeste that you see good reason why we should see more investigative records of George Hutchinson, if only for the fact his story places him in a very suspicious place if he was, or was thought to be, the man Sarah saw.....and I agree.

I think that one reason we might not see that kind of follow-up by the police is because they discovered something about him or his story that even makes his appearance at that location suspect, and therefore their early support of him invalid. I think one reason as I said may be because they thought they felt that they knew the identity of Wideawake, and that as soon as Hutch placed himself there, they had only to confirm or reject their own suspicions to make a call on his story.

Did they believe their own ideas, or Hutchs new story? I think within 2 days they made that call.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Hi Chava,

I think that we need to keep in mind that if Abberline believed his story, he did so based on the information available to him at the time. If Hutchinson did not appear drunk or mentally unbalanced or immediately start asking about a reward, I see no reason why Abberline would doubt his story. It is also possible that he had some minor doubts which he intended to discuss with his superiors. I also think it was a case of first things first in that he wanted to use Hutchinson to help find the man who could quite possibly be the Ripper.

c.d.

I don't question Abberline believing Hutchinson. He must have been extremely plausible. Nor do I question Abberline making that notation in the margin. I have no complaint whatsoever with Abberline's behaviour. However once the words are noted--and in a place where they cannot be erased--Abberline has a problem if Hutchinson is afterwards proven to be a liar.

[c.d.]

Hi Chava,

I think that we need to keep in mind that if Abberline believed his story, he did so based on the information available to him at the time. If Hutchinson did not appear drunk or mentally unbalanced or immediately start asking about a reward, I see no reason why Abberline would doubt his story. It is also possible that he had some minor doubts which he intended to discuss with his superiors. I also think it was a case of first things first in that he wanted to use Hutchinson to help find the man who could quite possibly be the Ripper.

c.d.

[Celesta]

That seems very reasonable and easy to believe, and I think you're probably right, Chava. The reason there was no record is that he was dismissed pretty much completely. What a strange man.



I hope your husband improves and gets well completely. You have my good wishes and prayers.

[Chava]

Did Astrakhan kill her? Not sure I believe in Astrakhan.

I'm sure I don't believe in Astrakhan. And Blotchy is my favourite suspect.

I'm convinced the reason we don't hear about Hutchinson any more is found in Abberline's infamous comment on his statement. Abberline believed him and wrote that down. If Hutchinson then turns out to be a fraud, putting such a thing in the files wouldn't benefit Abberline at all. And he was the senior Plod on the investigation and was under a horrible amount of pressure already. If Abberline hadn't written those fatal words, I think we would know much more about what happened to Hutchinson than we do know. But I strongly suspect that Hutchinson was exposed very quickly. And right afterwards was told to get out of Dodge. He left immediately for places unknown, and any embarrassment to Abberline left with him. What's interesting to me is that the press don't follow him up either. If the police go back to circulating Blotchy-Face's description, why don't the journalists ask questions? I'm guessing some damage-control went on whereby they agreed not to pursue this line of inquiry.

Thanks for the good wishes, Celeste. I'm fine, but unfortunately my husband isn't Although he is responding well to treatment and so things are looking better than they did a few months ago.

[Celesta]

Mike,

Yes, I know there was no indication that the murders were over. What I meant is that there is no paper trail related to Hutchinson, that we know of, after the point where they lost interest, or appeared to lose interest, in his story. If there was a line-up and Lewis didn't pick him out, then they lost interest---obviously---but we don't have anything that says it! If there was no line-up, did they completely lose interest in him, in any capacity? We have no record of him being shadowed either. He was such a darling, then they dropped him like a hot potato, with no explanation. With the passage of time and there being were no more murders right away, he eventually drifted out of their focus.

I would not have let him out of my sight, but they got so many nutcases and were so stressed that maybe they just dismissed him, out of hand, as witness or suspect.

Anyway, Blotchy is my man, mostly. Whether Hutch should have or shouldn't have seen him is another argument.

Did Astrakhan kill her? Not sure I believe in Astrakhan.


Welcome back, Chava. Hope you're well.

[Chava]

Hi Mike!

Hey, No Snow
The best,
Chava