Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly

[celticsun]

Hi LC,

Thanks for the info.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[celticsun]

Peeing on the bonfire

Hi Ben

"Pee on the bonfire". I like that. Many thanks for your able response to my previous post. My response as follows:

1) Let me clarify that when I said that MJK could charge at the "upper end of the range" I meant the upper end of the range for the area that she was working. As for the rest of your response to this point we are in complete agreement. I take it from your previous posts you don't believe in the existence of Astracan. Neither do I for the reasons you have stated along with a few of my own, but I am trying to stay "on topic" here (Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly.....?) and this requires the premise that Astracan really did exist. To my mind, the major reason for believing in his existence is that he was believed by Abberline (and that's no small reason). Try this mental exercise: Divorce Hutchinson's statement from Abberline's believing it and what's left? Only the tallest of tall tails.

2) Thanks for the info concerning the practices of the Victoria Home. Fills in a blank for me. Please remember, though, that we have only Hutchinson's statement concerning his visit to Romford that night. "I,m broke" is a standard response to prostitues and any other person trying to bum money off of you and Hutchinson's response is really just a variation of that. Just as easy to, and somewhat more logical to, believe that he really never took that 13 mile hike in those cold, miserable conditions.

3) Why? Because George Hutchinson would be a great suspect (along with Joe Barnett and Joe Fleming) if the murder of MJK stood alone. Unfortunately, it does not. You have injuries to the face and the missing heart, both indicative of a killer with a relationship to the victim, but these 3 seem to flit into our view for a short period of time and vanish into the mists of history just as quickly.....no known priors, no known bad reputation, very little known about any of them really. Not impossible, just unlikely in my opinion. Question: Do handwriting examples exist for any of these 3? If they do, has an attempt been made to match them to any of letters?

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[lynn cates]

shilling

Hello Celtic. Close. Actually, 1 shilling = 12 pence.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

fool

Hello CD. I agree. And whatever else Abberline was, he was no fool.

The best.
LC

[Ben]

And if Abberline didn't ask that question he would have been a complete fool. It's also extremely hard to believe that Abberline would not have discussed Hutchinson with Monro and wouldn't Monro have asked the same question?

He did ask that question, CD. We know what answer Hutchinson gave, and we we know that Abberline accepted it: he was surprised to see such an an individual in Kelly's company. Trouble is, we don't know if this explanation was accepted in the long run, since the Astrakhan description was apparently discredited very shortly after it first appeared. Indeed, as early as the 13th November, doubts over Hutchinson were expressed by "the authorities" according to the Echo.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Celtic,

I have no idea what a single trick was worth but considering MJK's youth and reputed beauty I'm sure that she could charge at the upper end of the range.

I rather doubt that. The prostitutes who were likely to charge the "upper end of the range" undoubtedly operated in the more affluent areas of London. Any prostitute commanding the highest rates were unlikely to live and operate around what was popularly advertised as one of the worst streets in London. Similarly, the customers who were willing and able to pay the highest rates were unlikely to look for business in Whitechapel. One has to wonder why Astrakhan man would choose to advertise the fact that he could "drip" money in a place where a) he didn't need too if he wanted a prostitute, and b) he was likely, if not guaranteed, to attract the worst possible attention. If he also planned on claiming a victim in the process, his attire and accessories served to pee on his bonfire even further.

I would suggest that Kelly's "beauty" is apt to be blown heavily out of proportion too.

I don't know what his plans for the night were, either. It is possible that he didn't have any concrete plans.

Bear in mind the history, though. He claimed to have walked from Romford, a journey of around 13 miles, in miserable conditions. The Victoria Home closed its doors to those not in possession of a daily or weekly pass at 12:30am, which means that Hutchinson set off on that mammoth hike, in the small hours, in the certainty that he wouldn't be able to gain entry to his lodgings. Now your mileage may vary, of course, but I don't consider it plausible that he'd embark on such a trek with the intention of doing more generalized "hanging around" when he returned to Whitechapel. Firstly, there wasn't much night-time left by that stage, and secondly, what was preventing him from dossing down in Romford?

At any rate, unless Hutchinson was the murderer (and let me state that I believe that the chance of this is next to nothing)

Why? I agree wholeheartedly with the view that he was probably motivated into coming forward and explaining his presence as soon as he learned that he'd been seen by Sarah Lewis, but why couldn't he have done so because he killed Kelly himself, and wished to vindicate his presence, wheeling on the generic Jewish surly scapegoat as a means of deflecting suspicion elsewhere? There have certainly been other cases of serial offenders injecting themselves into the investigation after learing of incriminating evidence linking them to the crime or crime scene, and it could easily have happened here, for all we know.

Best regards,
Ben

[celticsun]

Hi LC,

I'm not familiar with English currency but if a shilling = 8 or 10d that sounds about right.

I assume that Hutchinson's plan was to go home after the action died down but was willing to change them if a more promising situation arose. Not so very different than going to a tavern today and going home after last call.

Granted that it would have been less suspicious to the police if he were to have said that he was only at Miller's Court for a minute as opposed to 45 minutes but I am certain that he would have been questioned concerning his purpose for being in the area in any case. At any rate, unless Hutchinson was the murderer (and let me state that I believe that the chance of this is next to nothing) he would have been in no danger with either answer.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[c.d.]

Hello Celtic. I agree that Mary could command much more that the average 3 or 4d. Hence, I was generous and let it be close to a shilling. Seem right?

I presume that Hutch had some plan or other for the night. It seems unlikely that seeing MJK altered that.

It seems that, had he stayed for only a minute or so, there would be no police suspicion. If I were Abberline, however, and heard the story, my first question would be, "'ere now. What were yer doin' 'angin' around for 45 minutes mate?"

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

And if Abberline didn't ask that question he would have been a complete fool. It's also extremely hard to believe that Abberline would not have discussed Hutchinson with Monro and wouldn't Monro have asked the same question? My guess is that Hutchinson was asked and had a believable answer.

c.d.

[belinda]

I have not read the whole thread so forgive repitition.

*The Police took Hutchinson seriously at the time

*Hutchinson could have embelished the description of Astrakhan man one possible reason - to portray Mary as having a richer class of customer

*With Barnett out of the way I think Hutchinson was angling to be Marys next "protector"and move into Millers Court with her

[harry]

Yes Sam,he did,but nothing really of a domestic nature.Liken the situation to this.You know a couple living together.At two o'clock one morning you see her take a stranger to where they live,and after 45 minutes give up waiting for him to come out.Would not you be surprised at the situation,unless that is, you knew the couple had broken up and the male had moved out.
Hutchinson claimed aquaintance of Kelly going back quite a while.It would surprise me if he knew nothing of Barnett or the domestic situation with him and Kelly.

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Celtic. I agree that Mary could command much more that the average 3 or 4d. Hence, I was generous and let it be close to a shilling. Seem right?

I presume that Hutch had some plan or other for the night. It seems unlikely that seeing MJK altered that.

It seems that, had he stayed for only a minute or so, there would be no police suspicion. If I were Abberline, however, and heard the story, my first question would be, "'ere now. What were yer doin' 'angin' around for 45 minutes mate?"

The best.
LC

[The Good Michael]

That Hutchinson makes no mention whatsoever of those domestic arrangements,and him being a long time friend appears to me rather odd.It might have aided his story to suggest he hung around fearfull for her safety,as he knew she was living alone.Did he intentionally avoid the subject for some reason?

Harry,

I imagine the scene as more of an interrogation with Hutch answering questions. A young man, in a lousy neighborhood, who is probably quite streetwise, would know better than to volunteer extraneous information. He would have just stuck to the story he was telling while having to answer whatever extra questions the police asked him, without volunteering any extra. He just wanted a reward (maybe), but not the Spanish Inquisition. (here we go)

Cheers,

Mike
Mike

[celticsun]

Hello Celtic. That helps, but my reasoning is this.

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

True. But what was a single trick worth? Surely less than a shilling.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain hi[s] waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street.

What were his plans for the night? His meeting with MJK sounded like a chance, casual meeting.

3) My [g]uess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time [of] the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

But surely such a sighting would have been far less damning had he left at once? After 45 minutes, one tends to smell a rat.

The best.
LC

Hi LC,

First of all let me correct myself. In my previous post I mistakenly referred to Sarah Lewis as Sarah Keyler.

1) I have no idea what a single trick was worth but considering MJK's youth and reputed beauty I'm sure that she could charge at the upper end of the range. Also, the fact that the act took place indoors as opposed to an outdoor "quickie" on a cold night had to be worth something. MJK had already played Astracan for a handkerchief and he fairly dripped money, a fact that MJK can hardly been unaware of. Other factors that could have increased her fee were the amount of time requested by Astracan and the nature of the act requested. Again, Hutchinson's motive may have been lodgings or lodgings with sex.

2) I don't know what his plans for the night were, either. It is possible that he didn't have any concrete plans. His meeting with MJK does sound like chance, casual meeting. I don't know where the Victoria Working Men's home is on Commercial Street but Dorset Street dead ends at Commercial Street if the map that I have is correct. To me, it sounds like Huchinson was just hanging around looking for "opportunity" in whatever form that he could find it.

3) Sarah Lewis gave a police statement on Nov. 9th, but I don't believe her information became general knowledge until the inquest held on Nov. 12th. Hutchinson gave his statement to the police at 6pm, Nov. 12th, very shortly after the inquest. Coincidence is always possible but is seems as though Hutchinson learned of Sarah Lewis' testimony at or shortly after the inquest and covered his back with all due haste. Perhaps Hutchinson stated that he was looking into Miller's Court for 45 minutes simply because it was true. He had learned the telling lies only exposed himself to being caught in those lies and, therefore only lied when necessary. Like about his reason for being in Miller's Court.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[Sam Flynn]

That Hutchinson makes no mention whatsoever of those domestic arrangements,and him being a long time friend appears to me rather odd.

To be fair on the guy, Harry, he did mention loads of other things

[lynn cates]

pro et contra

Hello Celtic. That helps, but my reasoning is this.

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

True. But what was a single trick worth? Surely less than a shilling.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain hi[s] waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street.

What were his plans for the night? His meeting with MJK sounded like a chance, casual meeting.

3) My [g]uess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time [of] the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

But surely such a sighting would have been far less damning had he left at once? After 45 minutes, one tends to smell a rat.

The best.
LC