Definitely canonical

[Sam Flynn]

Thats why the idea the flaps were a Ripper signature based on Annies and Marys case...and them being absent in Kates case, seems odd.

Not if his actual "signature" was simply to get into the victims' innards by any means he could, Mike.

[Mitch Rowe]

And if Im gonna copy cat the ripper how do I know wich victim to copy from? If the copy cat picked Chapman then they must have thought of the plan at that time because unless MJK is there Chapman is the oddball.

And why on earth would anyone want to copy cat a guy who would have certainly felt alot of pain if caught? And why not just kill her in the street or kill her and hide the body.

It would be better to just have an unsolved unrelated murder while police are busy on the Ripper affair.

Copying the Ripper isnt very smart. But if someone did they would have to be a genius to begin with.

[FrankO]

Does he only make flaps when he is sure he will have some time, like in room 13? If so, why did he envision the backyard in Hanbury a more secure location than Mitre Square in its darkest corner?

If the actual reason was time, that's a question only the Ripper himself could have answered. He seems to have been bolder and more eager in the case of Chapman than in any of the others, so that may have been the reason.

Seems to me that before Mary Kelly the "mutilations" were what he did that suited him at the time to obtain access to the victims internal abdominal organs. Most of whats done to Mary served no such purpose.

Again, who's to say what he would have done if he had more time and privacy, what he would have done to satisfy more than what could be satisfied out in the streets. Attacking other female/feminine parts like buttocks, breasts and thighs, altogether take this female apart, obliterate her completely?

The best, Mike!
Frank

[perrymason]

Obviously, self-preservation would figure somewhere on his list but I`m guessing it would also have been very tricky cutting out panels in the darkness of Mitre Sq, and if he couldn`t see it, why not the faster, long cut.

I underlined where your subconscious made my point...a long cut would be faster, and to my eye, theres little difference in what perceived time may have been available at Hanbury or Mitre. Which brings it back to light as a possible reason the flaps werent present with Kate.

Although the fireplace was said to contain the ashes of a large fire, and although Inspector Abberline suggests there was a bright hot fire that night that melted the spout from the kettle...there is nothing that would contradict the remains of several small or midsize fires made over days or weeks without cleaning in between, and theres no confirmation of Abberlines spout theory from Barnett,...one of few people who might have known the state of that kettle from the night before.

Remnants in the fire means incompletely burned artifacts...in the case of the fabric, that almost ensures the fire was not hot and bright when it was placed on it...otherwise it would be consumed leaving only ash that would be impossible for them to determine was once black velvet fabric. The hat rim was found,...most assume that was a wire metal frame that was used to maintain a top hat shape....I think hat rim could well mean hat fabric on a rim too....in which case it wouldnt have been completely burned either.

Cheers Jon.

[Mitch Rowe]

Not if his actual "signature" was simply to get into the victims' innards by any means he could, Mike.

He is sort of right. It does seem odd. But not as odd as it would have been had Eddowes died behind a fence.

It could have been that Stride was killed by someone else and the Ripper and Eddowes expected to go behind the fence.

[Jon Guy]

I underlined where your subconscious made my point...

I was just covering my arse Mike. It was a conscious effort, my friend.

There was a candle in 13 Millers Court, and half an hour before Chapman was killed John Richardson said it was light enough to see all over the place.

[perrymason]

I was just covering my arse Mike. It was a conscious effort, my friend.

There was a candle in 13 Millers Court, and half an hour before Chapman was killed John Richardson said it was light enough to see all over the place.

Hi again Jon,

There was half a candle in room 13, and it had been bought days before...and according to some calculations by Sam and others, actual daybreak had not occurred yet in Hanbury. Just covering my own hindquarters Jon.

Sam, I realize that if the goal is to enter the abdomen, slitting it open or removing skin flaps to access it achieves the same objective....but I would think if we are talking about the same killer of the 3 women most prominent in this argument, the 2 women that had skin flaps removed and the one in between them that didnt.....there should be a logical or comprehendable reason why the flaps werent used with Kate.

Jon said available light...I dont think an assumption of much or any real light in room 13 is warranted. I dont see Annie or Marys death having significant advantages with light, nor Annies with time, as compares with Kates. So how about for speed sake...I cant see any reason why he would imagined he had more time at Hanbury than he had in Mitre Square. One is more precise and laborious, and as such, longer to perform. Yet Annies killer chose that method, Marys chose that method, and Kates killer didnt. And we have to assume at this point that Kates killer didnt know he only had 8 minutes....so he just acted as swiftly as the tasks and conditions would allow.

Why would there be a difference to him when he uses the flaps method? Just an arbitrary decision?...possible not probable due to the noteworthy differences in time and labor. Is there some definitive advantage to using that method in certain circumstances....would they be related to light or time?

One thing that can be factored at this point is that before Kate, no-one in the press had reported a kidney theft.....but before Marys skin flaps, there were printed reports of those same acts available for some time before her murder.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

according to some calculations by Sam and others, actual daybreak had not occurred yet in Hanbury.

In fact, Mike, the sun had not yet risen, but it would have been comparatively light even though the sun was still below the horizon. Indeed, Richardson's testimony confirms that it was bright enough to see all around the yard quite some time before Annie was killed.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I realize that if the goal is to enter the abdomen, slitting it open or removing skin flaps to access it achieves the same objective....but I would think if we are talking about the same killer of the 3 women most prominent in this argument, the 2 women that had skin flaps removed and the one in between them that didnt.....there should be a logical or comprehendable reason why the flaps werent used with Kate.

Time and lack of light no doubt conspired to force her killer to improvise. We aren't necessarily talking about preferences here, Mike - it's more a case of expediency or whim, I'd suggest.

[perrymason]

In fact, Mike, the sun had not yet risen, but it would have been comparatively light even though the sun was still below the horizon. Indeed, Richardson's testimony confirms that it was bright enough to see all around the yard quite some time before Annie was killed.

Richardson isnt necessarily untouchable on his timing as you know, so Ill reserve opinion there, at least I didnt misquote you as saying sun had risen........but based on the above, would your contention be that available light was a factor for the killer on when he might use the skin flap technique, as Jon's is?

The implication would then be that Marys room was approximately as bright an area to work in as the backyard at Hanbury was at near daybreak. Something Id contest myself, based on the lack of light in the room from 1:30am until at least Cox comes in around 3.

Id have far less trouble picturing a killer doing his dirty deed while a candle burned, but Id have trouble swallowing a murderer lighting the candle to see where he is cutting. I cant see a murderer starting a light after just slashing a woman to death.

The proximity of Marys windows to the courtyard where Mary Ann passed back and forth is such that she would have had opportunity to see light a few times after 1:30am, and didnt report seeing any, even though she faced the windows diagonally while leaving the court.

Best regards Sam

[perrymason]

Time and lack of light no doubt conspired to force her killer to improvise. We aren't necessarily talking about preferences here, Mike - it's more a case of expediency or whim, I'd suggest.

I think his perception of what time he may have had in Mitre Square should not be much different than what he was likely to get at Hanbury near daybreak.....and I dont think Kates murder scene was that much darker than Marys. I think light and time are valid reasons why he skips the flaps with Kate....but I dont see them as compelling reasons. Particularly with time.

If he first does this with Annie, its not because he thinks thats a safe spot for some extra cuts to remove flaps to access the abdomen, or because its light enough to do that, he likely does it cause thats how he gets into womens abdomens quickly. When he has a similar scenario some weeks later, he opts to cut it open without flaps.....and when he next strikes, in likely poor lighting, he returns to flaps.

It doesnt jive. Lets not assume that everything we can see is a random coincidental facet of the investigation....like with Annie, he just decides to cut flaps, then he just decides to slit Kate,....then he happens to do flaps again with Mary.

Before we assume he is incapable of structure and order and deliberate actions there should be some real proof of that.

Cheers Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

Richardson isnt necessarily untouchable on his timing as you know, so Ill reserve opinion there, at least I didnt misquote you as saying sun had risen........but based on the above, would your contention be that available light was a factor for the killer on when he might use the skin flap technique, as Jon's is?

I'm sure the ambient light played as much a factor in the manner of opening Mary's abdomen as it did in Chapman's, Mike.

The implication would then be that Marys room was approximately as bright an area to work in as the backyard at Hanbury was at near daybreak. Something Id contest myself, based on the lack of light in the room from 1:30am until at least Cox comes in around 3.

Cox never entered the room, though, did she? Besides, if Mary died after 3, there was nobody around to see even the merest chink of light escape via the rudimentary "curtains" on the windows.

I cant see a murderer starting a light after just slashing a woman to death.

I don't see why not. Anyhow, there was a fire which would have provided more than adequate illumination within the room, without necessarily leeching its light noticeably into the "courtyard".

The proximity of Marys windows to the courtyard where Mary Ann passed back and forth is such that she would have had opportunity to see light a few times after 1:30am, and didnt report seeing any, even though she faced the windows diagonally while leaving the court.

She might have had her head tucked down against the rain, or she simply might not have noticed. Besides, as I've said before, Cox was hardly keeping Number 13 under surveillance.

[Sam Flynn]

Before we assume he is incapable of structure and order and deliberate actions there should be some real proof of that.

I'm not assuming anything of the sort, Mike - besides, lack of structure does not mean lack of deliberation. He wasn't like a butcher, preparing cuts of meat in a methodical manner so as to make them presentable, and to ensure that the thickness of his steaks conform to a cost/benefit model. The important thing for the killer, I'm sure, was just getting "stuck in", and the manner in which he achieved that would have been entirely secondary to his aims.

[perrymason]

Were nitpicking the minutia here....whats the reason that Kate was not mutilated like Mary but was like Annie?

Annie and Kates murderers had specific focus we can attribute by actions. Marys did not.

The coroner in Pollys case, and a senior medical opinion on Annies case suggests the abdominal cuts were to enter the abdomen to obtain organs,...they assume the ones that were taken. Thats why Annie had flaps....to access abdominal organs to take...and why Kate had a slash...to do the same.

Marys flaps are so that he could,....what......peel her thigh easier? Get at the uterus he places under her head easier? Remove her heart? The beginning of skinning her? To access the kidneys that he leaves easier? To take home to smoke and dry out to eat like Jerky? To repeat an action that was taken by Jack 2 months earlier, so the murder might appear like a Ripper act?

Cheers again Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Were nitpicking the minutia here....whats the reason that Kate was not mutilated like Mary but was like Annie?

Look at the wider picture. What's the reason that none of the victims were mutilated in exactly the same manner? Answer - we're not dealing with a robot, but a very naughty boy...