Definitely canonical

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

You can only say this if you think that what JtR did to his outside victims was all that satisfied him. Perhaps that wasn't the case. We don't know. Furthermore, Mary's murder obviously did have focus we can attribute by actions. She was taken apart and obliterated. Degraded, dewomanised, depersonalised, dehumanised.

Obviously, it had nothing to do with peeling, skinning, the placing of the various organs and body parts or whatever. Mary's abdomen was opened up by cutting away flaps of skin, just like Annie Chapman's, in order to be able to get to the organs inside. Nothing more, nothing less.

All the best, Mike!
Frank

Hi Frank,

On your first paragraph above, I think that its a mistake to say that we dont know that he was unsatisfied with the acts that were performed outdoors at all, in fact we have senior medical opinion that suggests he acted in a manner so as to to obtain abdominal organs...so the flaps or a cut, no real difference in the application there.

He killed and opened the abdomens to take things...and he was never caught trying to take a few extra minutes to just cut away.

On the second, you cant really suggest that the flaps made with Marys abdomen flesh were done to aid accessing abdominal organs he will take with him, can you? He leaves every abdominal organ, even placing them about the body. You cant say the flaps were needed to remove and take her heart, you cant really say he does this because he feels the same sense of urgency that he did doing in in near daylight in a backyard overlooked by many neighbor windows, some stated as being open at the time.

You and David and Sam and others have noticed that a technique that is rare is used on 2 murders that are within the Canonical Group. The second and the 5th. Youve failed to account for the probability that if Marys killing was intended to look like a Ripper killing by copying some of his acts....of course not where he finds victims in this case, or how he starts the attack in the case, ...he would have at his disposal information prior to the murder that discusses the various things Jack does to women postmortem.

My contention has always been that Mary is probably not Jacks work ....due to circumstantial evidence, the significant evidence that suggests her killer knew her prior to this night, and the rationale for most of the injuries that are inflicted upon her, being some sort of entertainment for him.....but that her killing was made to appear like Jacks work to deflect suspicion as far away from her personal life as possible.

Just like screaming "another woman" has been killed in Berner Street suggested that a single throat wound is indicative of the serial killer at large who wasnt from the club. It wasnt...and still isnt.

All the best Frank.

[perrymason]

Look at the wider picture. What's the reason that none of the victims were mutilated in exactly the same manner? Answer - we're not dealing with a robot, but a very naughty boy...

Of course none are identical, he killed in unique situations each time, with likely varying degrees of comfort.

But you cannot say that there are not clear indications that 3 of the women within the Canonical Group are very closely matched in all facets of the attack and murder characteristics that essentially dictated a nickname for the killer.

Polly, Annie and Kate are eerily similar murders and the only thing separating them are unique acts that are included in addition to the pre-existing acts and signatures present in the previous victims murder.

Polly has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with some cuts.

Annie has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with skin flaps, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvis area is taken.

Kate has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with a long cut, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvic area is taken. Her face is cut and disfigured.

Those acts, perhaps consecutive ones, reveal a definite pattern of activity that in each case, seems almost identical.

Its not that Jack killed 5 different ways Sam.......thats only the case if you buy the Canonical Group. In fact the evidence says, if it was all Jacks doing, he kills 3 times almost identically, once with a single slice, and then just revels in the act of cutting itself in his finale. The evidence that we can use to assess what it is that Jack likes to do is not within the confined view of a speculated tally.

Hes only unpredictable based on the C5. If thats an incorrect concept....which it is, then Jack may have killed many more people or he may have killed only some of who is accused of. If he kills less than 5, I think 2 or 3 within that group could easily be paired as being by one man.

Best regards Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

As has been ignored many times, Annie's skin flaps were common knowledge for some time before Mary was killed.

They weren't actually, Mike - the details were suppressed to a large extent, and only reported in one or two rather obscure newspapers. Most, if not all, the accounts of the Chapman inquest I can recall based their information on what was written in the "big three" - the Times, the Telegraph and the Star - none of which carried the "three flaps" story.

[Sam Flynn]

In fact the evidence says, if it was all Jacks doing, he kills 3 times almost identically.

No, he doesn't, Mike - there are significant variations in the wounds, even in your "Canonical Three". His aim, however, seems to have been to get his hands inside a woman's guts by any means possible, and to cut bits out. He seems to have failed with Nichols on the latter count, but he later made up for it - and on a grand scale, in Kelly's case.

[perrymason]

They weren't actually, Mike - the details were suppressed to a large extent, and only reported in one or two rather obscure newspapers. Most, if not all, the accounts of the Chapman inquest I can recall based their information on what was written in the "big three" - the Times, the Telegraph and the Star - none of which carried the "three flaps" story.

I do know that Phillips was forced to discuss those specific details during the Inquest on Sept 19th, and I have read press accounts that mention skin flaps, although I dont recall that a specific number of them was given.

If nothing else, in the same way that Hutchinson might have learned of Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Man.. by attending the Inquest himself.

Everything that was done to Mary that had already appeared in previous Ripper crimes was covered in the press accounts of the various murders and Inquests. Including a so called Ripper threat letter suggesting taking a heart.

Polly surprised them, Annie intrigued them, and Kates wounds were not really unexpected based on those 2 previous kills. Marys killing baffled them. The best scenario most could offer is that he went crazy while killing her...due to the very odd and inexplicable things done in that room. Things they would not expect would follow Kates murder. Including the location itself.

Even if we could compare the technique used in the case of Annies and Marys skin flaps,.... where did he start cutting, what was the exact shape and number of the flaps...triangles/rectangles/squares, ...how deep did he penetrate..how thick was the layer he removes, did he place it skin down or up when he sets it aside, .......it still wouldnt ensure that both were by the same man unless the above answers dictated that.

Marys murder is markedly dissimilar to Annies, and is within a group of 3 murders within the C5 that match each other remarkably well in both style and activity. The commonalities that are shared by those three women are not shared with the murder of Mary Kelly.

With Mary, she is attacked with a knife while conscious undressed in her own room, she has her entire midsection hollowed out and the contents placed around the corpse and bed, she has damage done to her thighs that likely took as long as most entire attacks, murders and mutilations he is assigned previously, and the focus shown in the 3 prior victims mentioned is absent in this case.

I believe the contemporary investigators were correct about one thing here.....if Mary was killed by Jack, he was by necessity based on Marys murder, deeper in some psychosis than he was when he killed the abdominally mutilated victims, because the behaviors and acts are far less comprehendable with her killing. With Polly and Annie, medical opinion suggested they were cut open to have things inside taken. Not that they were cut for fun.

All the best Sam

[Malcolm X]

Kate has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with a long cut, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvic area is taken. Her face is cut and disfigured.

Those acts, perhaps consecutive ones, reveal a definite pattern of activity that in each case, seems almost identical.

you'd need some very convincing arguement to say that M.Kelly wasn't a ripper victim, all the evidence points towards her being his last..

you stand a far better chance, with Stride not as a Ripper victim.

[perrymason]

No, he doesn't, Mike - there are significant variations in the wounds, even in your "Canonical Three". His aim, however, seems to have been to get his hands inside a woman's guts by any means possible, and to cut bits out. He seems to have failed with Nichols on the latter count, but he later made up for it - and on a grand scale, in Kelly's case.

Im not talking specific wounds Sam...the entire event.

Polly, Annie and Kate were outdoors without a room paid for, were assumed approached by the killer as a client, and were subdued without a knife, placed on the ground, had their heads almost severed and their abdomens opened....twice giving the killer somethings to take home from inside the abdomen.

The evidence suggests that all 3 were almost "identical" in those respects. He captured them the same way, subdued them the same way, cut them once lying down with the same severity, and opened their abdomens....in Pollys case, being his first and in the streets, is likely the only reason she didnt give up abdominal organs too...it was a shitty choice of venue.

Cheers again Sam

[Malcolm X]

Marys murder is markedly dissimilar to Annies, and is within a group of 3 murders within the C5 that match each other remarkably well in both style and activity. The commonalities that are shared by those three women are not shared with the murder of Mary Kelly.

All the best Sam

yet again, this is because the Ripper was indoors; with far more time on his hands.... but the basic pattern is definitely the same as Eddowes.......cut throat first, head almost cut off, mutilation to the face, mutilation to the abdoman.......just much worst with KELLY.

no other killer operating in Whitechapel mutilated his victims like the Eddowes murder! ...........especially Tabram or the Torso murders, and all the others are random knife attacks or similar street kills only.

i think you're way off here... with all due respect

[Midnyte]

Hi all;
What clinches it for me is the double slash on Mary's arm. The victims all had, as you say, the throats cut so severely as to remove the head.
If the wounds on the left arm are indeed defense wounds, then the double slash would indicate that Jack (or let's say the assailant to prevent any kerfuffle ) thought that he was at the throat, or trying to get at it through the arm.
If the upper and lower wounds on the arm, (both double slashes), are lined up as though they were one continuous wound, the angles would require that the arm be bent over the head and close to the ear area.
Believe me when I say I have made jointed cut outs to line things up, and I am now working on an actual upright body from the shape on the bed, so I can see what type of body shape she had.
For example, her lower legs were long, but her thighs were short, her torso was long, (unless she had been disarticulated through the spine, which would drag the body length out a bit), and she had very long arms, but large hands.
This may help eventually in profiling her true ethnic background, and so on.
Thanks,
Joan

[perrymason]

you'd need some very convincing arguement to say that M.Kelly wasn't a ripper victim, all the evidence points towards her being his last..

you stand a far better chance, with Stride not as a Ripper victim.

I submit to you Mal that some very compelling evidence must be presented to include a murder that has virtually no common elements with 3 victims murdered outdoors with their abdomens opened, 2 with abdominal organ theft.

Both Mary and Liz are not included in the Canon based on their similarities with Polly, Annie and Kate, but on a premise that we cannot rule out that this killer changed his style and habits for these 2 murders.

Sunce he was batting 1000% before Mary in terms or evading capture and getting some take away goods....a change seems to me illogical....why change during a hot streak.....does a golfer who is leading the tournament Saturday come to the course Sunday with some new grip, or swing plane, or clubs.....nope, he continues to do what he has been doing until it doesnt work for him anymore.

Nothing says Jacks outdoor run wasnt working for him.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

I submit to you Mal that some very compelling evidence must be presented to include a murder that has virtually no common elements with 3 victims murdered outdoors.

So a streetwalker residing in the self-same district as the other victims, her throat deeply cut by a very sharp knife, her abdomen opened (in three flaps, yet!), and her organs removed constitutes "virtually no common elements"? I hardly think so, Mike.

[perrymason]

yet again, this is because the Ripper was indoors; with far more time on his hands.... but the basic pattern is definitely the same as Eddowes.......cut throat first, head almost cut off, mutilation to the face, mutilation to the abdoman.......just much worst with KELLY.

Its not the same pattern at all...Kate is picked up while possibly soliciting as she has no bed that night....Mary may well have met her killer while she is undressed in her own bed, she defended herself against the knife....no other Canonical was thought to be conscious when a knife is first used, and the three women mentioned above had the abdomens opened...in 2 cases, definitively, so that abdominal organs could be removed and taken.

They were not just abdominally mutilated, they were cut open to get things inside them.

So Marys thigh stripping is for what, to get access to her femur to look at? Was it neccesary to empty her midsection to remove a heart? Did he feel the uterus now belonged under the head?

Cheers Mal.

[perrymason]

So a streetwalker residing in the self-same district as the other victims, her throat deeply cut by a very sharp knife, her abdomen opened (in three flaps, yet!), and her organs removed constitutes "virtually no common elements"? I hardly think so, Mike.

A streewalker undressed in her own room in her own bed, residing just like 30,000 some odd streetwalkers in the district where Jack kills, is attacked with a knife, and had all her organs removed and 99% of them left behind placed around her. There is odd similarity to the method used to access the abdomens contents, a technique that was published before the murder, and anything that the killer of Annie and Kate coveted is discarded.

Common meaning some cutting acts seemed similar...sure....common meaning they are similar murders, far from it. Pollys, Annies and Kates killers were suggested to have some understanding of anatomy and perhaps even "surgical" experience...even at a butcher level. Marys never was.

Cheers Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Pollys, Annies and Kates killers were suggested to have some understanding of anatomy and perhaps even "surgical" experience...even at a butcher level. Marys never was.

Mike - I don't care what was "suggested" by whom at the time - how on earth can Dr Llywelyn's, or Bagster Phillips' c0ck-eyed opinions have anything to do with the identity of the killer? I'm looking at the evidence of each of the victims' wounds - NONE of which required professional skill - and ALL of which point to someone who cut women open in order to get his mitts on their organs and extract them.

I mean, this sort of behaviour isn't exactly commonplace, is it? How many men of that type do you think were wandering around the tiny district of Spitalfields in 1888 - or throughout the past 400 years, for that matter?

[Malcolm X]

Nothing says Jacks outdoor run wasnt working for him.

Best regards.

now was it! dont forget if Stride was his victim, then he was disturbed, yes he killed Eddowes as per normal, but the Stride murder ( later on) might have effected him........... therefore this and the increased police presence on the streets/ vigilantes etc.........might have caused him to back off for a month and to think ``i dont feel safe on the streets anymore, i need to kill indoors and to be safe``..

do i think this? NO... i honstly think that he was searching for a young attractive woman; the closest he could get in such a dreadful area, to a classic ``English Rose`` for his last victim, this took a month..

why so?....... because the Ripper wouldn't have worried about being seen on the streets, good grief; the suspect descriptions are rubbish.

the Kelly murder is wrong wrong wrong and i honestly think that you're noticing this too, but dont as yet realise this.........KELLY is simply not his normal victim type, as is choosing to kill inside/ mutilate so badly.

now, in my opinion she's definitely the Ripper's, it's just that the motives for killing her aren't the same as Eddowes, this murder is subtly different, especially if you view it from where i am.