A Reasonable Suspect...

[perrymason]

Hello again,

Im not sure that these accounts can easily be reconciled as one mans description Ben....

Mary Ann Cox:

"..A short, stout man, shabbily dressed. He had on a longish coat, very shabby, and carried a pot of ale in his hand.... A dark coat,... A round hard billycock.... He had a blotchy face, and full carrotty moustache."

Sarah Lewis:

"....opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes."

Similarities are there for sure, but Sarah made no notice of his clothes, his hair color in the form of a full red mustache, and a hard round billycock hat is not necessarily synonymous with a Wideawake Hat.

They both may be BF, but if that is the case, he is outside the room and either has killed Mary already or has returned to do so... neither seems really plausible to me...if he has killed already, he wouldnt be hanging around....and if he is returning, he has only left for maybe a half hour....leaving him wide open to be seen again by Mary Ann Cox for one.

I agree Caz, if he had a wife he would also have reason to avoid being interviewed later that week about Marys death...but as we saw with Squibby and other "suspects", taking your chances being recognized as a possible suspect on the street without coming forward with an explanation can be near fatal.

Id rather be honest and have my wife pissed at me myself, than risking a lynch mob thinking I might be Jack.

Cheers all.

[Chava]

Here's a link to my original post on the Suspects thread. It seems to me that there is a lot of similarity between the men described by witnesses in Stride, Eddowes, Wilson and Kelly. It's true, they could all have been different men. But sandy lashes and auburn moustaches aren't all that common. Add to that Ada Wilson's 'sunburnt' man, and Mary Ann Cox's 'blotchy-faced' man, and I think we have a viable suspect-description. Wilson thought the guy who went after her was a sailor. That could explain the time lapses between attacks...

[perrymason]

Here's a link to my original post on the Suspects thread. It seems to me that there is a lot of similarity between the men described by witnesses in Stride, Eddowes, Wilson and Kelly. It's true, they could all have been different men. But sandy lashes and auburn moustaches aren't all that common. Add to that Ada Wilson's 'sunburnt' man, and Mary Ann Cox's 'blotchy-faced' man, and I think we have a viable suspect-description. Wilson thought the guy who went after her was a sailor. That could explain the time lapses between attacks...

The similarities may mean that a man was involved in more than one murder, but Liz Stride reveals no evidence in physical or circumstantial terms she was a Ripper victim, Ada is assumed by investigators to not have been one, and Mary Kelly is at best, marginal, based on only known data.

You may help identify some or one of the other men that were quite obviously killing women during the same period as Jack by linking suspects seen from those crimes, but there is certainly no link to those crimes that is tangible or thought to exist back to Jack with any certainty.

Im of the GIGO Philosophy when it comes to Ripperalia Chava.....the ingredients have to be sound for the outcome to even possibly be......and 3 virtually identical attacks and murders stand out among the forest of suppositions on that basis.

All the best.....and buckle down, its getting cold and windy out here today. Cheers

[Ben]

and a hard round billycock hat is not necessarily synonymous with a Wideawake Hat.

It is, Mike.

Webster's dictionary from 1913 defines a "billycock" thusly:

A round, low-crowned felt hat; a wideawake.

The following is from an 1887 article entitled "The Billycock or Wideawake hat".

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TAN18870806.2.25&e=-------en--1----0-all

It may be a case that all billycocks are wideawakes but not all wideawakes are billycocks, but the overall inference is that the two are interchangable. The quaker hat is apparently a type of wideawake, but such headgear would be decidedly out-of-place in the East End.

Ada Wilson's attacker wore a wideawake, and here's how it was depicted in a contemporary sketch:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?pid=387&fullsize=1

and if he is returning, he has only left for maybe a half hour....leaving him wide open to be seen again by Mary Ann Cox for one.

Not a problem, Mike, since we know that he was seen on other occasions by other witnesses.

I'm not necessarily arguinf for Billycock and Wideawake being one and the same, but there's certainly nothing to rule out the possibility.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

If I had to choose, I would favour watchdog over sponsor for Wideawake’s role.

No, for wideawake's role I favour serial killer who monitered his crime scene, like many other serial killers, and who came forward with a bogus excuse designed to legitimize his presence and deflect suspicion in a false direction after learning he'd been seen.

[Malcolm X]

No, for wideawake's role I favour serial killer who monitered his crime scene, like many other serial killers, and who came forward with a bogus excuse designed to legitimize his presence and deflect suspicion in a false direction after learning he'd been seen.

yes i agree....TOTALLY

the idea that blotchy face and Hutch are the same; is only a quick theory....i'll have to think about this far more.

[harry]

Maybe Kelly,unlike the others,was a selected victim.The police would, I am sure,have checked her movements as far as possible to ascertain if she had been seen in company of anyone resembling the midnight companion.So perhaps he had followed her for some time and only accosted her near Dorset street,thus preventing any chance of an earlier association being evident.

[Malcolm X]

Maybe Kelly,unlike the others,was a selected victim.The police would, I am sure,have checked her movements as far as possible to ascertain if she had been seen in company of anyone resembling the midnight companion.So perhaps he had followed her for some time and only accosted her near Dorset street,thus preventing any chance of an earlier association being evident.

this tends to rule out Blotchy face...because as the Ripper he would've realised,
``i've been seen too often with Kelly tonight and i've just been seen yet again entering Millers Court with her...damn it``

i think he was a boozy friend only.. a drinking companion, returning from the pub after ``last orders`` it's just not the Ripper's style, as such; i dont think Blotchy face was Hutchinson...

what you say is interesting, did the killer stalk Kelly first? yes, but i dont think in the way you describe, because that points towards somebody like our posh Jew that Hutch saw.

i think Kelly was indoors all night...after Blotchy face left...the killer was waiting outside....

in my opinion, the only other killer was Blotchy face.... but no.... but did Kelly go out again later on...say 2am, my hunch is no... she was singing first and finally, sleeping off the booze

my outside bet is..........Hutchinson was stalking the streets looking for another victim, when all of a sudden while walking by, he heard a young woman singing in Millers court.....because her singing has always spooked me..... it's so sad

is it as simple as this?............ it could be

[Chava]

this tends to rule out Blotchy face...because as the Ripper he would've realised,
``i've been seen too often with Kelly tonight and i've just been seen yet again entering Millers Court with her...damn it``

We don't know that. No one came forward as far as I know to say she'd been seen drinking with a blotchy-faced man. Cox was the only one to mention him. He could have picked her up in the street and suggested they go back to hers with his pot of ale. I agree that he would not have killed her there and then, especially since she started to sing. But nothing to say he didn't creep back later. And make her pay for making him wait. Maybe that's the reason for the over-the-top mutilations etc.

[Malcolm X]

We don't know that. No one came forward as far as I know to say she'd been seen drinking with a blotchy-faced man. Cox was the only one to mention him. He could have picked her up in the street and suggested they go back to hers with his pot of ale. I agree that he would not have killed her there and then, especially since she started to sing. But nothing to say he didn't creep back later. And make her pay for making him wait. Maybe that's the reason for the over-the-top mutilations etc.

yes this could be true........Blotchy face could also have slept with her and then killed her at close to 4am.....soon after he woke up.

my guess is, he left her place; either before or after she started singing....but who knows!

[perrymason]

No, for wideawake's role I favour serial killer who monitered his crime scene, like many other serial killers, and who came forward with a bogus excuse designed to legitimize his presence and deflect suspicion in a false direction after learning he'd been seen.

Lets apply that to the number 1 suspect of record for the death of Mary Kelly based on the authorities investigation,....if Blotchy Man is a serial killer and wideawake, he enter the scene witnessed by Mary Ann Cox, and if he lingers or returns at around 2am, he could easily have bumped into her again. His returning to the scene later could be the match that burns him down.

You think he risks this?....despite the fact that almost all supposition that Jack killed Mary relies on the notion that he sought to decrease his risk of capture by moving indoors. Its one of the few explanations available frankly...because there is no preceding evidence he was unsatisfied or frightened of outdoor work....like every other murder that gets attributed to him.

Wideawake was waiting and watching for someone, and we have no evidence Blotchy had even left yet....when he is.

Best regards Ben.

[Ben]

he enter the scene witnessed by Mary Ann Cox, and if he lingers or returns at around 2am, he could easily have bumped into her again.

Not if he takes the time to moniter the scene before hand. Is there anyone on Dorset Street? No. Is there anyone blocking the entrance to Miller's Court? No. That way, he could provide himself with a reasonable degree of assurance that he wasn't going to bump into her again. Don't see too much of a risk factor there at all, and it's worth bearing in mind that Mrs. Cox only required a rear view of the suspect as she followed him and Kelly to the court.

Not saying it's necessarily by favourite theory, but it's one of several viable possibilities.

despite the fact that almost all supposition that Jack killed Mary relies on the notion that he sought to decrease his risk of capture by moving indoors.

My supposition doesn't rest on any of that. The ripper might well have preferred to have killed indoors all along, but was simply forced to commit his murders on the street through a lack of suitable indoor venues. The fact that he was successful in evading capture outdoors doesn't mean it was his preferred type of killing venure. But let's have that debate all over again!

Cheers Mike,

Ben

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

I reckon she was drunk and had gone to bed - how hard would it have been for the killer to get in and do his work? And she wouldn't have made a fuss, because it would have been over before she had time to react. Makes sense to me, anyway.

but she did react, she had defence wounds on her arms.

---MJK---

[Malcolm X]

now

mary kelly was heard singing in her room at about 1am ..but no light on and no singing at 3am, so we dont know when mary stopped, so she was singing for at least 1.25 hours...flipping heck.

she was already drunk at 11.45 and probably far drunker by midnight....now what was Blotchy face doing in there....well i doubt they were having sex whilst she was singing i expect he was either crashed out in a semi-drunken stupor; listening to her, or listening to her but still relatively sober.. maybe blotchy face asked Mary to sing just for a laugh...a victorian version of a Kareoke........this maybe points to him being a boozy friend only, the priority that night for Kelly being; getting blind drunk and not wanting to be on her own.

did blotchy have sex with Kelly after she stopped singing...no idea, but i doubt it if she was blind drunk, more likely he gave up and left and she staggered into bed.

we donk know what went on between 1 and 2 am, but 2am to 3am is covered; because Hutch is outside.

did Kelly carry on singing to 1.30am or even 2am.... 2am is critical, or was Hutch at Millers court earlier on as well, say at 1.15am.....

something caught Hutch's attention at 2am (if he's the Ripper) to lurk outside for an hour, what attracted him to 13 MILLERS COURT.....it could have been her singing ..... but also, i think (as he said) that he knew M.Kelly, just in case some other residents there; said a few days later ``that's one of Kelly's clients, i've seen him at her place about 4 times``..he might even have stolen her front door key

there's a month gap between Eddowes and Kelly... yes, Hutch planned this murder well in advance...maybe

did Hutch give Blotchy face some money....``get her blind drunk, but be out of there by 2am``... this is a very strong possibility.... and does ``LIPSKI`` really mean....``look out, there's a Jew comming`` or ``hay Jew, clear off``

schwartz could never say if the 2 men were together and we could never solve this on Ivor Edwards forum either... this Stride murder is a confusing mess

whatever the case, Hutch is my number 1 suspect....easily

[perrymason]

now

mary kelly was heard singing in her room at about 1am ..but no light on and no singing at 3am, so we dont know when mary stopped, so she was singing for at least 1.25 hours...flipping heck.

she was already drunk at 11.45 and probably far drunker by midnight....now what was Blotchy face doing in there....well i doubt they were having sex whilst she was singing i expect he was either crashed out in a semi-drunken stupor; listening to her, or listening to her but still relatively sober.. maybe blotchy face asked Mary to sing just for a laugh...a victorian version of a Kareoke........this maybe points to him being a boozy friend only, the priority that night for Kelly being; getting blind drunk and not wanting to be on her own.

did blotchy have sex with Kelly after she stopped singing...no idea, but i doubt it if she was blind drunk, more likely he gave up and left and she staggered into bed.

we donk know what went on between 1 and 2 am, but 2am to 3am is covered; because Hutch is outside.

did Kelly carry on singing to 1.30am or even 2am.... 2am is critical, or was Hutch at Millers court earlier on as well, say at 1.15am.....

something caught Hutch's attention at 2am (if he's the Ripper) to lurk outside for an hour, what attracted him to 13 MILLERS COURT.....it could have been her singing ..... but also, i think (as he said) that he knew M.Kelly, just in case some other residents there; said a few days later ``that's one of Kelly's clients, i've seen him at her place about 4 times``..he might even have stolen her front door key

there's a month gap between Eddowes and Kelly... yes, Hutch planned this murder well in advance...maybe

did Hutch give Blotchy face some money....``get her blind drunk, but be out of there by 2am``... this is a very strong possibility.... and does ``LIPSKI`` really mean....``look out, there's a Jew comming`` or ``hay Jew, clear off``

schwartz could never say if the 2 men were together and we could never solve this on Ivor Edwards forum either... this Stride murder is a confusing mess

whatever the case, Hutch is my number 1 suspect....easily

Hi Malcolm,

On the silence and darkness, Mary was heard to sing off and on until after 1am, and when Elizabeth Prater heads upstairs to bed, she sees no light nor hears noise. That marks the time it is first dark and quiet....1:30am.

There is no evidence that ever changes offered by passes by Mary Ann Cox and she is out until 3am..or Sarah Lewis coming in around 2am... only that Mary may have called out at around 3:45am.

In many stories when the singing stops and the lights go out after 1am that means people are bedding down for the night...particularly so if anticipating a Holiday parade the next morning for example......a likely possibility by the evidence and one that many Ripperologists dont even entertain.

Cheers Mr X