"Murder...!" cry

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

[Rainbow]

Maybe ' Murderer ' ?!

Rainbow°

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Mmmmm....that would make a little more sense...

I can see that more readily as being an actual response, if it was dawning on her she was with the killer everyone was talking about. Like, if he's taken out a knife, or said something incredibly threatening that tied in with the previous events the whole city was obsessed with.

[Rainbow]

The word ' Murderer' not only was a helping shout.. it contains the Surprise effect on Kelly, she didn't expect that her client was the Whichapel Murderer she was always reading about..


Rainbow°

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
If one takes Mrs Praters inquest observation, it was if ''Awakening from a nightmare'' things make sense,
A completely different person, stated some years later [ Lottie] to Kit Watkins,a Canadian Journalist .
Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her,[this was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].
Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''.
Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.

[Harry D]

I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.

Hello, Richard.

I've read some compelling arguments for MJK's murder occurring later than estimated. There were several witnesses who claimed to see MJK that morning, and Mrs Maxwell was particularly adamant in her testimony.

One could question why a killer who usually struck in the early hours would leave it so late. Obviously, he was indoors this time but the timing still increased the risk of interruption. The window pane was broken, anyone could've sneaked a peek and seen the killer red-handed. And if Indian Harry had been sent for the rent a little earlier, there would've been trouble.

[GUT]

Hi.
If one takes Mrs Praters inquest observation, it was if ''Awakening from a nightmare'' things make sense,
A completely different person, stated some years later [ Lottie] to Kit Watkins,a Canadian Journalist .
Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her,[this was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].
Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''.
Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.

I've never understood the entrenched resistance to this idea.

[Elamarna]

I've never understood the entrenched resistance to this idea.

Me too..

The TOD given is largely guess work.

While I favour around 4 am , I have no real issue with a TOD of up to 9am. After that it's becomes increasingly problematical.


Steve

[Wickerman]

The Friday evening press was reporting...
"It is confidently stated the deceased was seen after 10 o'clock this morning in company with a paramour, when they were both drinking at a public house at the corner of Dorset street."

Bowyer discovered the body at 10:45, which doesn't leave a whole lot of time for this murder & mutilations. So, it isn't just the medical evidence.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon.
The killer mutilated Eddowes in a very short space of time, if you worsen that 10 fold, you are looking at no more then 40 minutes , top wack.
Mary's killer could have been out that room by 9.45 easily, how he managed to achieve that is another matter.
Regards Richard.

[Pierre]

Hi.
If one takes Mrs Praters inquest observation, it was if ''Awakening from a nightmare'' things make sense,
A completely different person, stated some years later [ Lottie] to Kit Watkins,a Canadian Journalist .
Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her,[this was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].
Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''.
Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

and the statements from the inquest about the nightmare (and violets and singing) was in the press long before Watkins talked to Lottie.

Regards, Pierre

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

"Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her." [This was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].

Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''. Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.

Thanks. That puts the words in a more understandable (potential) context.

Very sad, too.

Poor little mite...
.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon.
The killer mutilated Eddowes in a very short space of time, if you worsen that 10 fold, you are looking at no more then 40 minutes , top wack.
Mary's killer could have been out that room by 9.45 easily, how he managed to achieve that is another matter.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard.

I don't recall there being an indepth debate on Casebook about whether Kelly could truly have been murdered so late.
I know a few do support the idea but it is never explored as a serious theory.

Maybe we should, at least it would be a refreshing change

[Wickerman]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Right from the start it always sounded to me like the response of a third-party. Like, someone peeked through the crack in the window and saw the body, or saw the murderer in action.
Which raises a whole bunch of new questions about a missing witness, someone who chose not to come forward.
I don't see that as a problem, but others have.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.