"Murder...!" cry

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.

Hi Richards,

I understand what you mean.

But how can you know that the accounts or sources are independent when the source from 1892 has Lottie saying the same three things earlier stated by Prater in newspaper articles after the inquest in 1888?

Regards, Pierre

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pierre.
When it all boils down to, is its all hearsay.
There are so many coincidences, and so many theories.
Must say there must be a life away from Lechmere.
I have always looked at the little bits of puzzle, and try to fit them
Regards Richard.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8

.

[Abby Normal]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Hi merry

There was good discussion about this point a while back and it was shown that at the time, if one really needed help, and or wanted police to enter a house to help, which Mary obviously was, then it was well known to shout murder.

I think if Mary was awoken and or in a drunken half asleep mode to being attacked I don't find it odd at all. We need to keep in mind to our modern ear it just sounds odd.

[Abby Normal]

Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8

.

Love that movie!

I think didlles may have been awoken to the smell of blood and perhaps prater was off a bit on her memory. I had a cat and it used to get very agitated at the smell of blood. One time roommate was cleaning some very bloody deer meat and my cat started getting active, including constantly rubbing up against my leg.

[jason_c]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

[GUT]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

Not sure about literature, but it becomes apparent that cries of murder weren't uncommon when you read papers if the day, often with nothing of consequence being reported.

[Kattrup]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

[GUT]

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

Well seems there were cries heard when no assaults even reported.

[Varqm]

Maxwell and Maurice lewis said they saw Kelly at at least 8:00 AM and at around 10:00 AM.
Maurice Lewis said he knew Kelly for 5 years but Barnett said Kelly came to London 4 years before which cast doubt on Maurice Lewis.
Caroline Maxwell's seems truthful,but where was the corroboration from the people manning Britannia,the pub Kelly was known to frequent,inside or outside? The Britannia was full at 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM? which made it hard to remember the people inside?
The police believed she had the date wrong.

[Wickerman]

The police believed she had the date wrong.

But how do you get the date wrong, when it was the same day?
The murder happened Friday morning, Maxwell was questioned Friday afternoon.

Wrong Day?

[GUT]

But how do you get the date wrong, when it was the same day?
The murder happened Friday morning, Maxwell was questioned Friday afternoon.

Wrong Day?

I find it hard at accept too. Had it been a week or two later.... maybe. But the same day???

[Kattrup]

Well seems there were cries heard when no assaults even reported.

Yes, I was just replying to jason_c (and the OP) who thought it was an odd cry from someone in mortal danger.

It seems so to us, but victims of assault did use it. Therefore, it's possible it was MJK's last word.

[Wickerman]

I find it hard at accept too. Had it been a week or two later.... maybe. But the same day???

I don't recall the police at the time suggesting Maxwell had the day wrong. Maybe I've forgotten, or possibly Varqm was referring to Dew's memoirs. Given that Dew wrote that explanation close to fifty years after the fact, maybe this was his defective memory at work?

[Michael W Richards]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Historical context can help with this issue...its clear and unchallenged that many people heard such calls in the East End late at night and they had nothing at all to do with an attack or assault. It was a commonly used phrase for annoyance. Like Bloody Hell is today....certainly not a literal phrase either. If you examine the evidence, the location that the 2 separate sources said the sound came from, the evidence that room 13 was silent and dark before 1:30am, and the fact that Praters cat chose to wake her a second or two before the sound, you have an easily explained event.

Mary Kellly was sleeping...and we can assume, (if Im correct), that she was alone. Someone knocked softly on the window or door, waking diddles, and Marys response when answering the door was one of annoyance. After all, she had been sleeping off what sounds like a goodly amount of booze.

The reason she was alone is because no voices or any sounds were heard after that cry...leading us to believe she let the visitor in without vocal or physical objections and that the visitor didnt find her in the room with someone else...the fact that Sarah heard it "as if at her door" and Elizabeth heard it "as it from the court", we can safely assume that the call was from that courtyard. Yet even after this was published, no-one came forward and claimed that voice. If it was Mary Jane, then theres your reason no-one claimed it. The reason this wasnt a call for help is because, as stated, no sounds were heard after that cry, and Mary Kelly has her throat slit while on her bed facing the partition wall, not while standing at her door.

Many of the questions raised about any of these murders can often be answered using known established evidence and some degree of logic and reason. But when it comes to the many phantom and ghoul hunters, logic and reason dont seem to apply.

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she allowed into her room about 3:45, which means he was well known to her. So you can forget the trolling stranger here.