Mary Ann Nichols

[JTRSickert]

Good night, Sweet Polly. May you have peace in death that you did not have in life.

May angels voices guide thee to thy rest.

[Paula Thomas]

Addendum to my post above.

At that time the Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways terminated at Whitechapel. This would have meant that a great deal of noise would have emanated from the station.

Additionally the East London Railway ran at a deeper level but was still in a cutting just north of Buck's Row (it emerged from it's tunnel just north of Whitechapel station on its way (then) to Liverpool Street station. With all those trains about it is a wonder that anyone in the area slept at all!!

Paula

[Paula Thomas]

The thing I'm getting at was that she says the train woke her. Here's the scenario: Mrs. Lilley is asleep. The train is approaching. Now this train is either in a tunnel or a "train canyon" and noises are echoing here and there and some are distorted or amplified or muffled. Now, her ears hear some noises and relay this information to her brain that tries to process is but since she's in a dream state, it get incorporated into that dream, whatever it is. Pretty soon, she wakes up and thinks, "Wow, that darned train just woke me up!" She's still groggy and her brain is still processing and reprocessing all of these sounds she's hearing, taking some back from the dream and trying to put it back into reality and so forth. Later, after she learns that a murder has taken place literally under her nose, her brain sifts back though those memories, some dream and some lucid or semi-lucid and reprocesses that information and makes moans and whispers out of it. I guess my point is that her testimony or recollection of the events, in my opinion is far from reliable.

The reference to a 'train canyon' would probable indicate that the train was on the Metropolitan District Railway (today the District Line). The train would have stopped at Whitechapel Station just (by which I mean about 20 meters) south of Buck's Row and run in an open cutting until about 150 meters west of Whitechapel station. The train would not be going particularly fast as the, now closed, St Mary's station was only about 50 meters into the tunnel however as it was hauled by a steam locomotive it would haave been noisy. The other possibility would have been presumably a shunter in Whitechapel Goods Depot on an embankment on the north side of Bucks Row. The main Great Eastern line is 200 meters or more to the north.

It is surprising that a resident of that area would have registered a particular train or been woken by one as there would have been a lot of noise in the area not only from the various railways but also from Whitechapel Road itself.

Paula

[Dokk]

The thing I'm getting at was that she says the train woke her. Here's the scenario: Mrs. Lilley is asleep. The train is approaching. Now this train is either in a tunnel or a "train canyon" and noises are echoing here and there and some are distorted or amplified or muffled. Now, her ears hear some noises and relay this information to her brain that tries to process is but since she's in a dream state, it get incorporated into that dream, whatever it is. Pretty soon, she wakes up and thinks, "Wow, that darned train just woke me up!" She's still groggy and her brain is still processing and reprocessing all of these sounds she's hearing, taking some back from the dream and trying to put it back into reality and so forth. Later, after she learns that a murder has taken place literally under her nose, her brain sifts back though those memories, some dream and some lucid or semi-lucid and reprocesses that information and makes moans and whispers out of it. I guess my point is that her testimony or recollection of the events, in my opinion is far from reliable.

As an aside, I have aquaintances that are criminal investigators and lately, a favorite saying among them is "the worst witness is an eye-witness". Here in Texas, we are having to re-evaluate how eye-witness testimony is treated because so many criminals who were convicted based on this are being set free based on DNA evidence that proves that it wasn't them after all.

[rain]

The sound from the train could last as long as fifteen minutes, 5 minutes approaching.. five minutes when it is actually close, and five minutes leaving.

It has been estasblished that the train was there at 3:30 am.. the sound would have lasted from 3:25 am to 3:40... since the train was a regular thing, many people would know around that time a loud noise (the train) would cover up sounds and to someone that may be a good time to commit a murder... my point is that jtr knew of the train and might have lived in the neighborhood where he was familiar with the train and it's time schedule...

He was also familiar with the area enough to know where to hide immediately after killing someone.... or maybe he lived on the very block that Nichols was murdered.

Once he killed nichols, he found it easy to kill again.

Imo Mrs. Neeley was either lying completely about hearing anything, or she was hiding the fact that she knew who the killer was, meaning that she actually saw and recognized the murder through her window, but people wouldn't lie about the identity of a murderer unless they were close friends, and even then they probably would not conceal the identity of someone who committed such a terrible crime. They would only lie to protect someone very close to them... such as a family member, and as I have already stated the murderer of Polly Nichols probably was familiar with the train and knew where to hide in the neighborhood.. or could have lived right there and simply went home after killing Nichols.

Her testimony leaves a lot of questions.. she could hear whispers and moaning but not the ruckus of a body being discovered.... and then she doesn't tell the police but she tells a newspaper what she (supposedly) heard.

[Jon Guy]

Having been woken by the train and then dozing, dream and reality could be mixed. Even if she did hear something happeneing, was the moan a real moan or a sound from the train. Did she really hear whispers and in her dozing state mix that, or even the sounds of the strangling with sounds of the train and her brain just sorted out what it heard into a moan and whispers to fit what she later discovered about the murder? I think she heard something but sorting out what she did hear is the question.

LOL...this really could go on forever as the crime did happen 120 years ago.

True, but ask anyone who has lived next to a railway line for a number of years whether the train still wakes them up, probably the answer will be no.

[Dokk]

Hi Dokk

My opinion is that that the 3.30 train woke Lilley, but she continued to doze and heard Nichols been strangled, and then Cross and Paul whispering across the road to each other and then by the body. But, because she was dozing this fourteen minute period merged into a shorter time frame.

Having been woken by the train and then dozing, dream and reality could be mixed. Even if she did hear something happeneing, was the moan a real moan or a sound from the train. Did she really hear whispers and in her dozing state mix that, or even the sounds of the strangling with sounds of the train and her brain just sorted out what it heard into a moan and whispers to fit what she later discovered about the murder? I think she heard something but sorting out what she did hear is the question.

LOL...this really could go on forever as the crime did happen 120 years ago.

[Jon Guy]

I wondered about this myself. A train approaching can make a lot of strange noises especially in a tunnel, or partially underground like this one appears to be (I may be wrong on that). Walls will echo and amplify noises that are not usually heard in an open situation and deaden others. Also factor in tht she was indoorsat the time and sounds from the train echoing off apartment walls couod be mistaken for a lot of things. Factor this with the fact that she was not able to sleep and may have led to a mild anxiety over that fact plus it's the middle of the night and dark. The mind does many funny things to us. Could her moan and whispering been "bumps in the night" or imagination?

Hi Dokk

My opinion is that that the 3.30 train woke Lilley, but she continued to doze and heard Nichols been strangled, and then Cross and Paul whispering across the road to each other and then by the body. But, because she was dozing this fourteen minute period merged into a shorter time frame.

[Dokk]

I wonder how could she hear a moan and whispering even though a train is passing. It seems to me that sound from the train would drown out the other noises.

I wondered about this myself. A train approaching can make a lot of strange noises especially in a tunnel, or partially underground like this one appears to be (I may be wrong on that). Walls will echo and amplify noises that are not usually heard in an open situation and deaden others. Also factor in tht she was indoorsat the time and sounds from the train echoing off apartment walls couod be mistaken for a lot of things. Factor this with the fact that she was not able to sleep and may have led to a mild anxiety over that fact plus it's the middle of the night and dark. The mind does many funny things to us. Could her moan and whispering been "bumps in the night" or imagination?

[rain]

Tom Wescott writes:
"She claimed to have heard a woman murdered followed by whispering"

Is that not jumping the gun a bit, Tom? Lilley spoke of a painful moan and some ghasps, followed by whispering, AT THE TIME THE 3.30-TRAIN PASSED BY. But she did not say that she overheard a murder, did she?
There seems to be very little time elapsing between moan, ghasps and whispering, rendering it improbable that she heard Jack and Cross/Paul. There must have elapsed a minute or two between the cut and Cross´arrival, but the sounds Lilley heard seemed to hang together in time.
Also, if it all happened at 3.30, and if, like you yourself seem to believe, the Ripper was spooked by Cross, there is a ten minute gap here, that ought not be there.
Add to this that what Lilley heard, seemed to have taken place below her window.
My suggestion, as you may have read, is that Lilley heard a couple having sex, some minutes before Nichols and Jack made their appearance.

The best,
Fisherman

I wonder how could she hear a moan and whispering even though a train is passing. It seems to me that sound from the train would drown out the other noises.

[Dokk]

I have to disagree. A "quick slash" across the throat would create a bit of blood spray wouldn't you think? There was no sign of this in the area. There was bruising evidence on her chin consistent with someone either holding her jaw firmly while cutting or perhaps from choking her. I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that she was prone and likely dead already from strangulation when the throat cut was made.

In addition, why would you say she met "Jack" on the 30th? She was seen quite alive already in the wee hours of the 31st and not in the company of anyone. The time of encounter with her killer would seem to be placed somewhere between 3:15 and 3:45 on the 31st.

I would like to hear (see?) more thoughts on this line. I'm kinda new here but I've been studying up on this rather intently for about the past week. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the pool of blood under Mary Ann Nichols was something along the line of a foot in diameter. There are statements that her clothing was not overly bloody and there is no mention of blood spray on the gate, wall, pavement or anywhere else for that matter. This indicates that she was quite dead when the perpetrator started cutting, slashing, stabbing or whatever. Maybe she was dead even before she hit the ground. Evidence shows round bruises on the neck area so I think she was probably choked by hand. Now, this brings up another point, if she was choked to death by hand, how strong was the perpetrator? It seems to me that she would loose conciousness before death and the murderer might mistake this for death in which case, blood would still be under pressure and blood spatter would occur with a slashing or cutting wound.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[paul emmett]

Hello, Fisherman.

Yes, there is a distancing in my quote as opposed to yours.

Yes, I did ask you.

No, overrated? Before KILL BILL? NO

My fiance' just came home with mega-expensive sake. I'm off to try it as long as she's buyin'.

Have a good evening.

[Fisherman]

Paul!

I know that your quote comes from the Echo too. But my passage quotes Lilley, and your quotes the reporter that spoke to her. When he - not Lilley -speaks about cries, he hints to Lilleys experience. My feeling here is that he just tries to vary the language, and comes up with "cries".

Pulp fiction? Not really, no. Quentin Tarantino is THE most overrated director of the day, if you ask me. And you did, didn´t you?

The best, Paul!
Fisherman

[paul emmett]

Here, again, is the wording as reported in the Echo:
"Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distincly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint."

This might be much ado over little, but I want to be sure we are, literrally, on the same page. My quote above in #85was also right from the ECHO. Indeed, it followed yours directly, and I gave it because you had asked what happened AFTER she heard whispers. AND these are Lilleys words too.

So we have painful moan, gasps, and cries. Ant the cries are not those of a brawl. You say they should be of a brawl if they come from the killing, but I don't think JTR ever let it sound like a street brawl. That's why we're here talking about him.

Also I know that moans and gasps come from the "little death", and I know that getting it right is a subjective thing. But I'm still going for both painful moan and cries that Lilley would even think to put in the same sentence as brawl as more associated with the BIG death.

So you don't like PULP FICTION either?

[Fisherman]

Here, again, is the wording as reported in the Echo:
"Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distincly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint."

That is her own wording: Painful moan, some gasps and then whispering. And actually, Paul, if what she heard HAD belonged to a street brawl - namely that when Nichols lost her life - then it would have been much more logical if it sounded like street brawl sounds too, would it not? If, however, the sounds differed from such sounds, then it stands to reason that they came from something else, and NOT a brawl or fight. That, to my mind, tallies well with sounds of sex. Moans and gasps are not all that uncommon it that business, provided you get it right...

The best, Paul!
Fisherman