Mary Ann Nichols

[Tom_Wescott]

My thoughts on Mrs. Lilley are now that she was probably accurate in her testimony. The moans and gasps were Nichols, the whispers being Cross and Paul. Unfortunately, her evidence adds very little to our knowledge of the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[paul emmett]

I believe that[Harriet Lilley's statement] was only ever reported in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper on Sunday September 9th, and may not be entirely accurate. If true, it's odd that this was never mentioned in any of the inquests.

Lilley's statement about the moans, gasps and whispers did appear in THE ECHO for Thursday, Sept. 6, and it was made that day. Pretty late, but certianly in time to be presented at the last two sessions of the inquest.
And it does seem strange that it wasn't. The Echo showed that the train schedule confirmed Lilley's timing: there was indeed a train at 3:30. Jon has shown that Mrs. L was real, and living at 7 Buck's Row. And while it might seem weird that, as johnnyerwin suggests, people nearer heard nothing, there are two considerations here. Mrs. Lilley was close--they said both two doors away and a few yards--AND Green and Purkis seem to be sound sleepers since they slept through the noises of the body being discovered, ultimately having to be woken up by the police.

It does seem odd. Does anyone have thoughts or info on Mrs. L?

[johnnyerwin]

Yes, somewhere here on Casebook are the census records for Bucks Row, possibly under the "victims - Nichols" menu, if you scroll down the Nichols page they are at the end. They are listed there.

Ah yes, I see them there. Thank you.

[Jon Guy]

BTW, from where did you obtain proof that this is a real person? Was she in any of the census records?

Yes, somewhere here on Casebook are the census records for Bucks Row, possibly under the "victims - Nichols" menu, if you scroll down the Nichols page they are at the end. They are listed there.

[johnnyerwin]

A Mrs Lilley and her husband did live in Bucks Row, and the railway line was certainly behind the house, and judging by PC Neals beat, the murder took place around 03.30 am.

The only two reasons I can think of for why she was not a the inquest are that the police failed to interview her that morning, or "hearing sounds" was not valued as evidence, especially when it was not realised that this was the begining of a series.

Well the timings certainly are within the window that all the other evidence suggests, so I wouldn't be too surprised if this was accurate, however it does seem weird that people who were closer to the body didn't hear anything.

BTW, from where did you obtain proof that this is a real person? Was she in any of the census records?

[Jon Guy]

A Mrs Lilley and her husband did live in Bucks Row, and the railway line was certainly behind the house, and judging by PC Neals beat, the murder took place around 03.30 am.

The only two reasons I can think of for why she was not a the inquest are that the police failed to interview her that morning, or "hearing sounds" was not valued as evidence, especially when it was not realised that this was the begining of a series.

[johnnyerwin]

Mrs Harriet Lilley of Bucks Row had a restless night`s sleep and reported hearing at around 03.30 am ( she fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house ) the sounds of a moan and gasps, followed by whispers.

I believe that was only ever reported in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper on Sunday September 9th, and may not be entirely accurate. If true, it's odd that this was never mentioned in any of the inquests.

[Jon Guy]

Mrs Harriet Lilley of Bucks Row had a restless night`s sleep and reported hearing at around 03.30 am ( she fixed the time by a luggage train that passed her house ) the sounds of a moan and gasps, followed by whispers.

[johnnyerwin]

I have to disagree. A "quick slash" across the throat would create a bit of blood spray wouldn't you think? There was no sign of this in the area. There was bruising evidence on her chin consistent with someone either holding her jaw firmly while cutting or perhaps from choking her. I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that she was prone and likely dead already from strangulation when the throat cut was made.

In addition, why would you say she met "Jack" on the 30th? She was seen quite alive already in the wee hours of the 31st and not in the company of anyone. The time of encounter with her killer would seem to be placed somewhere between 3:15 and 3:45 on the 31st.

[detective abberline]

Polly's life until she met Jack is pretty well documented. We know where she was until the 30th August which is when she met Jack. No one has come forward from Bucks Row and from the reports no-one knew anything was happening. Which gives credence to the quick slash scross the throat from right to left so it doesn't splash him.

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