Mary Ann Nichols

[paul emmett]

But she did not say that she overheard a murder, did she?

Also, if it all happened at 3.30, and if, like you yourself seem to believe, the Ripper was spooked by Cross, there is a ten minute gap here, that ought not be there.

My suggestion, as you may have read, is that Lilley heard a couple having sex, some minutes before Nichols and Jack made their appearance.

Hello, Fisherman, all.
Here is what she said.

"Lilley added that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The cries were very different from those of an ordinary street brawl."

And while I agree with you, Fisherman, that the time gap, among other things, makes it unlikely she heard Cross and Paul whispering. The word "cries" here and the context for it, don't make it sound like sex.

On the other hand, if one believes Lilley, we seem to be left with a choice from: Cross&Paul, MurdererS, or something like your scenario.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:
"She claimed to have heard a woman murdered followed by whispering"

Is that not jumping the gun a bit, Tom? Lilley spoke of a painful moan and some ghasps, followed by whispering, AT THE TIME THE 3.30-TRAIN PASSED BY. But she did not say that she overheard a murder, did she?
There seems to be very little time elapsing between moan, ghasps and whispering, rendering it improbable that she heard Jack and Cross/Paul. There must have elapsed a minute or two between the cut and Cross´arrival, but the sounds Lilley heard seemed to hang together in time.
Also, if it all happened at 3.30, and if, like you yourself seem to believe, the Ripper was spooked by Cross, there is a ten minute gap here, that ought not be there.
Add to this that what Lilley heard, seemed to have taken place below her window.
My suggestion, as you may have read, is that Lilley heard a couple having sex, some minutes before Nichols and Jack made their appearance.

The best,
Fisherman

[nicole]

Hi Tom,

Just a quick point on your comments about the credibility of Harriet Lilley. You say:

I agree with Paul that Mrs. Lilley seems credible. She claimed to have heard a woman murdered followed by whispering, both of which we know to have taken place.

The only account we have of the 'whispering incident' is from Mrs. Lilley herself.

We know that Cross and Paul conversed but there is no record of them saying that they 'whispered', as such.

For the record, I too think that Lilley is credible.

sincerely
Nicky

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

Lilley was missed by the police. A few posts back I listed who was questioned that morning, as given by Spratling at the inquest. ( The Times. Sourcebook)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

I agree with Paul that Mrs. Lilley seems credible. She claimed to have heard a woman murdered followed by whispering, both of which we know to have taken place. Does her evidence shed any new light? No, because we already knew when and where Nichols was killed and that she was immediately discovered by Cross and Paul who hung around and talked to each other before departing.

I don't think it should be assumed that Mrs. Lilley was 'missed by the police'. They would have knocked on her door. Not everyone is called to the inquest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

Not Glenn, though, he shall have to close his ears for the moment; sorry, Glenn! It´s just that I find Lilley´s testimony interesting, and the part with the train passing by, making her miss a bit of the proceedings, lends an air of credibility to her words, the way I see it.

Spot on, Fisherman !! It is interesting. Possibly not as interesting as one of the many "Would Mary Kelly have looked good in a mini skirt" threads. But, some welcome flavour to the scant Nichols case.

Harriet Lilley doesn`t offer us anything new, she didn`t hear the wheels of the carriage , or whispering in Yiddish.

She was missed by the police, who were chastised by the coroner at the inquest. Luckily, a pressman sensed that this was a "second murder" of enough importance to make the effort. Her story been reprinted the day after the Chapman murder.

[paul emmett]

Hello, Fisherman.

To my knowledge, all we have on Lilley, besides the census reports, is from the article in ECHO reprinted in LLOYDS. There it says that after she heard the whispers, she woke her husband and told him that she could not sleep that night. Then she goes to "When I heard about the murder, . . .."

Are there other sources? Lilley has always seemed credible to me, too--espescially if you take "heard about the murder" as you do.

Sorry, Glenn.

[Fisherman]

Hi Paul!

"When I heard about the murder..."

Yes, it can be interpreted as Lilley hearing about it by word of mouth, long after the hullabaloo.

And it can be interpreted as something she heard about in connection with the hullabaloo.

And it can be interpreted as something she heard of somewhere inbetween these "extremes".

Won´t take us anywhere, evidencewise, I think.

There is of course the possibility that the fifteen or so minutes offered after the whispering sequence was enough to allow for Lilley to go back to sleep, and if the investigation on the other side of the street was not all that loud, then maybe she did not hear about the murder until she woke up, went out and spoke to the neighbours. Whenever that may have been.

Do we know? Is there a recording of Lilleys doings after she heard the whispers? Anybody out there?

Not Glenn, though, he shall have to close his ears for the moment; sorry, Glenn! It´s just that I find Lilley´s testimony interesting, and the part with the train passing by, making her miss a bit of the proceedings, lends an air of credibility to her words, the way I see it.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Again - why is anyone actually taking Mrs Lilley seriously?
It's a newspaper story - unverified - and a statement made after the actual event.
Each murder case is littered with people, alleged to have 'heard moans' etc. For heavens sake...

All the best

[paul emmett]

As for PC:s Neil and Thain and the hullabaloo that followed the murder, what makes you think that it went unnnoticed by Harriet Lilley? Fisherman

Hello, Fisherman, Frank, all.

Earlier in this thread, when I wanted to show that Purkis and Green were neither the best witnesses nor the lightest sleepers because the hullabaloo didn't wake them, I did wonder about Lilley too. In her statement, she said, "When I heard about the murder, . . . ." She didn't say, "when I heard all the hullabaloo" or "when I realized there had been a murder." And I felt that her phrasing seemed to imply word of mouth AFTER the fact.

I also think that if you feel that JTR was interrupted, and I do, it's not unreasonable to feel that he had cut in order to collect.

[Fisherman]

Frank van Oploo writes:

"The notion that the police didn't come knocking on her door wouldn't in any way have prevented her to go to the police herself. Certainly in light of Lilley's belief that the voices she heard were in some way connected with Nichols' murder, it would have been very odd if she wouldn't have done this.

What seems a bit odd, too, is that she did hear the moaning and the whispers, but remained oblivious to Neil's arriving, Thain's dashing by her house and all the moving around and talking that took place close below her window directly following the discovery of the body. This must not have been very long after the moaning and the whispers.

Plus, in view of the fact that at least Inspector Helson was at the crime scene some time after 7 a.m., I can't help wondering when and how she did hear about the murder..."

Frank!

Of course nobody prevented her from going to the police. That, however, does in no way go to prove that she would have.
To begin with, I think our safest bet here is to accept that she did not go to the police. Considering her story, it would have been odd if she was just dismissed.
If she did not go, there may be lots of answers as to why, and though we can of course throw forward a number of them - not being comfortable with the police, having a grudge against them etcetera - there is with all certainty no way we are going to be able to pinpoint it.

As for PC:s Neil and Thain and the hullabaloo that followed the murder, what makes you think that it went unnnoticed by Harriet Lilley?

The best, Frank!
Fisherman

[nicole]

Plenty of serial killers put deep gashes into their victims without taking anything. You can't assume that something he did in later murders was on his mind in earlier ones. You might as well say that he had intended to mutilate the faces of Nichols and Chapman but had gotten interrupted -- why bother to go to the trouble of killing them and NOT mutilate the face?

I think that we ARE entitled to assume that Jack had a trophy in mind with Nichols. Why? Because everything points to him having been interrupted. And the fact that, just eight days later, he successfully obtained trophies from Chapman.

I won't comment on the second part of your post because it's rather petty (in my opinion, of course).

sincerely

Nicky

[FrankO]

Hi Fisherman,

The notion that the police didn't come knocking on her door wouldn't in any way have prevented her to go to the police herself. Certainly in light of Lilley's belief that the voices she heard were in some way connected with Nichols' murder, it would have been very odd if she wouldn't have done this.

What seems a bit odd, too, is that she did hear the moaning and the whispers, but remained oblivious to Neil's arriving, Thain's dashing by her house and all the moving around and talking that took place close below her window directly following the discovery of the body. This must not have been very long after the moaning and the whispers.

Plus, in view of the fact that at least Inspector Helson was at the crime scene some time after 7 a.m., I can't help wondering when and how she did hear about the murder...

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Excellent stuff, Jon! Includes Purkiss and Green, excludes Lilley - and a good number of other residents living fairly close to the spot where Nichols was killed. So much for the "she must have been interviewed and dismissed"-stuff!
One can´t help wondering, though, whether a police representant was dispatched to 7 Buck´s Row after the Echo article ...

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Yes, Jon, it seems the interviews with the neighbours were perhaps not extended to mrs Lilley. The Daily Telegraph records it:
"Witness also visited half a dozen persons living in the same neighbourhood, none of whom had noticed anything at all suspicious."
That, though - as seems always to be the case with things Ripper-related - could mean that Lilley was counted in - or out...

Hello Fisherman

Further to our discussion, I re-read the inquest coverage, from the Times, where Insp Spratling confirms that the only places they made enquiries in Bucks Row that morning were :

Mrs Green`s
Essex Wharf
the watchman at Sneiders factory
the keeper at the Board School
Great Eastern Wharf
the gateman at the Great Eastern Railway.

That`ll probably be why Harriet Lilley never made it to the inquest.