Mary Ann Nichols

[Dan Norder]

I mean, why go to all the bother of killing Nichols and open her abdomen and NOT take something?

Plenty of serial killers put deep gashes into their victims without taking anything. You can't assume that something he did in later murders was on his mind in earlier ones. You might as well say that he had intended to mutilate the faces of Nichols and Chapman but had gotten interrupted -- why bother to go to the trouble of killing them and NOT mutilate the face?

[nicole]

Hi all,

It's clear that Jack was a 'trophy-taker' and all evidence with Nichols suggests that he was disturbed. I mean, why go to all the bother of killing Nichols and open her abdomen and NOT take something? Most people suggest that Cross most probably disturbed Jack. But think of this....

Mrs. Lilley woke up and couldn't get back to sleep (even woke her poor husband up to tell him so). And Mrs. Purkiss was possibly pacing her room at time of the murder (approx. 3:30am). What if Lilley or Purkiss simply lit a lamp or candle. This would be enough to 'spook' Jumpy Jack.

Just a thought.

Nicole

[Fisherman]

Yes, Jon, it seems the interviews with the neighbours were perhaps not extended to mrs Lilley. The Daily Telegraph records it:
"Witness also visited half a dozen persons living in the same neighbourhood, none of whom had noticed anything at all suspicious."
That, though - as seems always to be the case with things Ripper-related - could mean that Lilley was counted in - or out...

If we turn to the Times, it records mr Purkiss as saying that his wife had been pacing the room at the time Nichols was slain. But then again, the only way mr Purkiss would have known that for sure, was if he had been awake to record the events. Clearly he was not, and so this assertion of his would have rested on his wife telling him that she was up and about at the time. Sort of. Just aboutīs. Which does not add up to much of a certainty...

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

None of the other residents in Buck's Row heard or noticed anything. Emma Green - who lived in the New Cottage house closest to the gates diagonally over the murder site and considered herself to be a very light sleeper - heard or saw nothing.
Walter Purkiss - the resident in Essex Wharf and who had been awake on several occasions during the night - had heard or noticed nothing. Nor did anyone else in the area. And they were all interwieved by the police - Lilley wasn't.

Inspector Spratling was embarrassed by the Coroner at the inquest when he was questioned about the number of residents of Bucks Row interviewed that morning.

It does appear that only a few locals were questioned,namely those of Mrs Green`s house and the Essex Wharf.

[Tom_Wescott]

You guys sure you all got your facts straight on Lilley? Some things aren't ringing right.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Glenn,

Fact remains, too, that she only made her newspaper statement a week after the murder, while in it she claimed that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The logical thing would be to go tell the police about it as soon as she could and I can't really imagine that she wouldn't have found out about the murder any later than the very morning following the murder.

So, she either didn't tell the police, which would be odd if we are to believe her claim, or she did but the police came to the conclusion that her story had no bearing on the murder.

All the best,
Frank

Exactly Frank. Well put.

All the best

[Fisherman]

With the risk of repeating myself; the fact that neither Purkiss or Green heard anything does not go to prove that Lilley did not. Like Chava points out, assuring that you are a light sleeper need not hold all that much water, and as for Purkiss, stating that he was awake during periods of the night goes eminently to show that he was not during others. At the inquest, he said that if there had been any screaming in Buckīs Row that night, he would have heard it. That is not the same as an assertion that he would have heard a whispering conversation from underneath Harriet Lilleys window, is it? And being an only earwitness to something does not equal being either wrong or a liar.
It is all a moot point, however, as what Lilley claimed to have heard would not have had any connection with the Rippers strike.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Hi Glenn,

Fact remains, that Mrs Lilley's account is only a story appearing in the papers and not in any police reports,...

Fact remains, too, that she only made her newspaper statement a week after the murder, while in it she claimed that as soon as she heard of the murder she came to the conclusion that the voices she heard were in some way connected with it. The logical thing would be to go tell the police about it as soon as she could and I can't really imagine that she wouldn't have found out about the murder any later than the very morning following the murder.

So, she either didn't tell the police, which would be odd if we are to believe her claim, or she did but the police came to the conclusion that her story had no bearing on the murder.

All the best,
Frank

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Sure indeed, Mrs Green might have been rambling when she said she was a light sleeper, but then again we have Walter Purkiss living just opposite the murder scene and who was awake on several occasions during the night, and nor he or his family heard or saw a thing.

For the record, I don't think the Ripper was THAT quiet or soundless - if the talking between two people and the word 'no' Cadosh heard really came from Annie in the Hanbury Street yard, then the crimes weren't committed during total silence. I think he was fast, however, and very effective in leaving the crime scenes unseen. But I also think he was lucky in some respect.

Fact remains, that Mrs Lilley's account is only a story appearing in the papers and not in any police reports, and - in contrast to the one delivered by Mrs Mortimer (the Stride murder) - is not verified or corroborated in any way. And even if it were, there is a huge possibility that what she is supposed to have heard had nothing to do with Polly Nichols at all.
A newspaper story, one of many - that's all.

All the best

[Chava]

...and of course we're taking Mrs Green's word for it that she's a light sleeper. In fact she might sleep like the dead, but 'I'm a light sleeper' sounds so much more high-toned! Like those women who say they eat like birds, yet somehow they weigh 25 stone. It's this kind of stuff that leads to the stories about the Ripper's legendary stealthiness. I'm not suggesting he's loud. But it's entirely possible he's quiet enough not to wake a bunch of normally-sleeping people. And normally-sleeping people can sleep through a lot. This is something I just found out, as it happens, last night. Our next-door-neighbours are away for Easter. There is a smoke/CO alarm in their house yelling its head off. We looked/smelled through the letterbox but couldn't find anything, and we thought it might be an almost-dead battery because sometimes in those alarms they sound to let you know they're almost out. But 10 hours later, in the small hours, it was still shrilling. After some debate we called the fire department, begging them not to come out all sirens blaring, to check it out as we didn't have a key. They came up our narrow street along with a cop car, and the firemen and the cops all snooped around but good, and weren't particularly quiet about it. No one woke up in the other houses. It's still blaring away--the FD thinks it's a faulty alarm. So after that experience of sleepers, I'm thinking any noise would have to be Really Loud to wake most people from sleep!

[paul emmett]

If whatever happened in Bucks Row really wasn't loud enough to arouse the adjacent and opposite residents, it might be said that Purkiss and Green's non-evidence served as a demonstration of the murderer's hallmark stealthiness.

Does this sound at all like, "It ain't our fault: we got no clues."?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for your reply.

If whatever happened in Bucks Row really wasn't loud enough to arouse the adjacent and opposite residents, it might be said that Purkiss and Green's non-evidence served as a demonstration of the murderer's hallmark stealthiness.

Regards,

Simon

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi All,

There was a lot going on in and around Bucks Row on the morning of August 31st.

A domestic knife incident, bloodstains along Brady Street, cries of 'Police! Murder!', someone bumping against Mrs. Colville's shutters, moaning and whispering from beneath Mrs. Lilley's window which was just two houses down from where Nichols was found.

As neither Mrs Colville nor Mrs. Lilley were called to the inquest, the police must have quickly decided that none of it had any bearing on the murder of Nichols. The only local residents subpoenaed to give evidence were those who heard nothing.

Why? If Walter Purkiss and Emma Green heard nothing, what was the point in calling them to the inquest?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

The simple reason might be that Purkiss and Green were interviewed by the police at the night of the murder and that they lived by the murder spot. That would probably qualify them to appear at the inquest even if they didn't see or hear anything.
Most likely Mrs Lilley - since she never appears in any police files - was never in touch with the police at all but was simply a witness tracked down by the press or who approached the press herself. The authorites appears to have been quite reluctant to call such witnesses at the inquests.
But hey - it's a good question indeed.

All the best

[Simon Wood]

Scavengers

Hi All,

Does anyone know anything about the scavengers in Bucks Row?

EAST LONDON OBSERVER, September 1st 1888

"Constable Neale at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by. Mr. Edmunds, the keeper of the mortuary, was in attendance, and assisted by the officer and the scavengers, undressed the poor creature and placed her in one of the black coffins lying about the mortuary."
Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

Bucks Row had terraced houses/cottages along the right hand side (looking towards Brady Street). The left hand side was one long brick wall behind which were factories, warehouses etc.

I don't know the numbering of Bucks Row, so cannot accurately place No. 7. But if this was Mrs. Lilley's address (two doors from where Nichols was found) she lived next door to Mrs. Green at New Cottage.

Regards,

Simon