What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[MrBarnett]

Fish,

There were 4 specific 'Tiger Bays' in that area: Frederick Street, Brunswick Street, Henry Street and Everard Street. In fact the whole area bounded by Fairclough Street, Backchurch Lane, Christian Street and Cable Street was notorious in the 50s and 60s. All Tiger Bay on one level, although the 4 streets mentioned had the highest concentrations of brothels. Until the Jews moved in and largely displaced the previous inhabitants.

[Sam Flynn]

Since Liz Jackson had her neck severed, her uterus taken out and her abdominal wall taken away in large flaps

Here we go again! Two slips, or strips, of flesh are not "large flaps", and she did not have "her abdominal wall taken away", but PART of the lower abdominal wall.

Also, let's not forget that Jackson's foetus was taken out along with her uterus. This was as much a "baby-ectomy" as it was an hysterectomy, if not more so. In other words, if she hadn't been pregnant, one seriously wonders whether her uterus would have been taken out at all.

[MrBarnett]

Well, obviously - unless it can be proven that he was only allowed to cart goods within the radius allowed for by Batman. He was a carman, for heaven´sake! What´s the problem people are having?

You know me, Fish, I lean towards Lechmere carting horseflesh from Broad Street to the handful of knackers yards that would eventually form HB. Some of their locations coincide with possible drop sites of torsos.

And, the only other record apart from 1888, we have
of a Pickfords' carman named Charles Cross concerns an incident that occurred a few streets away from John Harrison's yard and close to the Regent's canal.

[Abby Normal]

The basement was a maze consisting of many vaults. The workmen admitted it would be extremely hard for someone unfamiliar with the layout to find their way into the vault where the body and leg was found. It just happened to be the one vault they kept their tools in at night. There were other easier areas to dump the body rather than trying to find the way into that particular vault.

Have you seen the map of the basement?

It measured 128 ft by 168 ft.

Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

"When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

agree Jerry
there was a special meaning for that location for the killer to take that much trouble and RISK to dump there-probably because he had familiarity with the location and or it had some weird reason/significance for him.

[Fisherman]

Pinchin Street wasn't far from where Cross's mother lived - so what? Did Cross cut up the body in ma's house, and/or was ma involved in killing and dismembering the Pinchin Street victim? If Cross had killed/dismembered the body elsewhere, say in Bethnal Green, why lug it all the way to St George-in-the-East, ostensibly to $hit on his mother's doorstep?

Doesn't make any sense at all.

We can always produce scenarios that make no sense at all. You have a flair for it, so you would know.

However, if we instead combine our knowledge that the police thought that the torso was carried manually to the dumping site with our insight that Lechmere´s mother lived Cable Street, we may see that we suddenly are looking at a perspective that makes a whole lot of sense.

Pinchin Street is inextricably linked to Charles and his mother and the Lechmere family. A torso was dumped there. Like it or not, that represents a link inbetween the torso murders and the carman. If you want to think it is a false link, just as you think any link pointing to Lechmere as the killer or to a common originator of the two murder series must by way of definition be false, knee-jerk fashion, then be my guest.

Just don´t pretend that the link does not exist.

[Fisherman]

Here we go again! Two slips, or strips, of flesh are not "large flaps", and she did not have "her abdominal wall taken away", but PART of the lower abdominal wall.

Also, let's not forget that Jackson's foetus was taken out along with her uterus. This was as much a "baby-ectomy" as it was an hysterectomy, if not more so. In other words, if she hadn't been pregnant, one seriously wonders whether her uterus would have been taken out at all.

And how did Hebbert ALSO describe the flesh portions dumped with the uterus of Jackson? Say it loud together with me, Gareth:

LARGE FLAPS! And again, only a tad louder and clearer this time: LARGE FLAPS!!!

Charles Hebbert, who examined Jackson specifically used that wording. Don´t even try and deny it, because it will bounce back immediately.

As for the foetus, speculate and conjecture away as much as you like. She had her uterus taken out, Chapman, Kelly and Eddowes suffered the same fate.

That, Gareth, is what is commonly described as a link. Cry your eyes out about it, by all means. But don´t deny it.

[Sam Flynn]

Denial. Arrogance. A refusal to accept the obvious.

Let's test that, shall we? George Hutchinson stayed in the Victoria Home, a short walk from where all the victims lived and slap-bang in the geo-profiling heat map. He met Mary Kelly on her on the night of her death, and can be placed outside her room within hours, if not sooner, of her murder. Hutchinson wasn't averse to walking for miles at night, so toddling off to (e.g.) Bucks Row or Mitre Square should have presented him with no problems. Furthermore, he was unemployed, not obligated to any boss,not tied to a work rota, and free to come and go as he pleased, at any time.

On grounds of his proximity to the victims and the scenes of crime, in terms of opportunity, and because we can definitely place him with one victim on the night of her death, it's would be sheer denial and arrogance not to accept the obvious fact that George Hutchinson was Jack the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

We can always produce scenarios that make no sense at all. You have a flair for it, so you would know.

However, if we instead combine our knowledge that the police thought that the torso was carried manually to the dumping site with our insight that Lechmere´s mother lived Cable Street, we may see that we suddenly are looking at a perspective that makes a whole lot of sense.

Pinchin Street is inextricably linked to Charles and his mother and the Lechmere family. A torso was dumped there. Like it or not, that represents a link inbetween the torso murders and the carman. If you want to think it is a false link, just as you think any link pointing to Lechmere as the killer or to a common originator of the two murder series must by way of definition be false, knee-jerk fashion, then be my guest.

Just don´t pretend that the link does not exist.

hey fish
Im not sure if it has been mentioned before but to me as I just posted, and have also said repeatedly in the past-that the torso dump sites were done on purpose and had special meaning to the killer-so Lechs step father being a cop-maybe that has something to do with the dumping in the NSY vault? has this been discussed before?

[Joshua Rogan]

I lean towards Lechmere carting horseflesh from Broad Street to the handful of knackers yards that would eventually form HB. Some of their locations coincide with possible drop sites of torsos.

Would horseflesh be carted to knackers yards? I seem to recall you saying previously that the horses had to be killed at a yard, what would be the point of then sending the carcass to another yard via Broadstreet, or any other station?

[Fisherman]

You know me, Fish, I lean towards Lechmere carting horseflesh from Broad Street to the handful of knackers yards that would eventually form HB. Some of their locations coincide with possible drop sites of torsos.

And, the only other record apart from 1888, we have
of a Pickfords' carman named Charles Cross concerns an incident that occurred a few streets away from John Harrison's yard and close to the Regent's canal.

Yes, I know you, Gary. You are a much welcome counterweight to the sad shortcomings of many others when it comes to choosing rationality first-hand.

It´s immensely refreshing.

[Joshua Rogan]

Incidentally, there was a cat's meat shop on the corner of Backchurch Lane and Cable Street, not 50 yards from where the Pinchin St torso was found. Does anyone know if this had any connection to Lechmere or his mum?

[Harry D]

Just don´t pretend that the link does not exist.

Is it a link or just another tangential coincidence? The case is full of 'em.

[MrBarnett]

Would horseflesh be carted to knackers yards? I seem to recall you saying previously that the horses had to be killed at a yard, what would be the point of then sending the carcass to another yard via Broadstreet, or any other station?

Supply and demand. London demanded more cats meat than its knackers yards could supply, so they imported the shortfall from provincial firms. Some of that came into Broad Street.

Charles Lechmere's mother ran a cats meat business.

His son described himself as a meat carter/salesman (a helpful census official noted 'cats) and lived at at least two addresses in Winthrop Street.

The Lechmere family ran a cats meat business on Broadway market.

Harrison, Barber had the contract to dispose of Pickford's redundant horses and the manager of Pickford's Horse Department was on the board of HB.

[Sam Flynn]

And how did Hebbert ALSO describe the flesh portions dumped with the uterus of Jackson? Say it loud together with me, Gareth:

LARGE FLAPS!

He also, and more frequently, described them as two slips (or strips) of flesh.

And again, only a tad louder and clearer this time: LARGE FLAPS!!!

Nowhere near as large as Kelly's - now they were truly "large flaps". And three in number, come to think of it.

And, to repeat, Jackson did not have "her abdominal wall taken way", but PART of the wall of the lower abdomen. Out of all the victims, only Kelly literally had her abdominal wall taken away, from the pubic arch to the diaphragm, and from flank to flank; like I say, they were "big flaps" all right.

As for the foetus, speculate and conjecture away as much as you like.

It's a fact that she had her foetus removed, and the conjecture that she wouldn't have had her uterus removed, had she not been pregnant, is a perfectly reasonable one.

Chapman, Kelly and Eddowes suffered the same fate.

Neither of whom was pregnant, and neither of whom were decapitated or dismembered.

That, Gareth, is what is commonly described as a link.

Not a major link, when taken into conjunction with all the other details.

[Sam Flynn]

We can always produce scenarios that make no sense at all. You have a flair for it, so you would know.

Now that's totally false accusation, isn't it? Not wishing to blow my own trumpet, nor indeed pretending that I'm always right, but I think I have a good track record of producing very sensible scenarios indeed.