What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Sam Flynn]

[Smith] was most likely targeted by them for sport.

I'm inclined to think the same. I picture a bunch of yobbos out for a bit of rough-and-tumble, egging each other on until things got out of hand. The reason why we don't see a precedent, or repeat, is possibly because they were genuinely frightened by what they ended up doing.

[MrBarnett]

Furthermore, would everyone's favourite carman have known the layout of the Whitehall building site?

Depends what he was carrying on his cart, I suppose. I lean towards it being horseflesh, in which case, probably not.

[Sam Flynn]

I would assume higher-ranking ones working with the project would have, but not a lower-ranking one generally speaking I would think.

I doubt very much that a local Whitechapel police officer, whether of low or high rank, would have been privy to, or interested in, the details of a building site in Whitehall.

[MrBarnett]

I'm inclined to think the same. I picture a bunch of yobbos out for a bit of rough-and-tumble, egging each other on until things got out of hand. The reason why we don't see a precedent, or repeat, is possibly because they were genuinely frightened by what they ended up doing.

And let's not forget Smith's initial reluctance to go to hospital. If she hadn't died of her injuries, we'd probably never have heard of her. If she had refused to go to hospital and had survived them, there would be no record at all of her attack.

The idea that the nature of her attack was unique, that no brute had ever outraged a woman in such a way before is rather naive.

[Sam Flynn]

The idea that the nature of her attack was unique, that no brute had ever outraged a woman in such a way before is rather naive.

Quite so.

[MrBarnett]

What cannot be denied is that the Pinchin Street dump site was of particular significance to CAL. It was within sight of the childhood home where he had lived with his 'respectable' Ma and her policeman toyboy whom she had bigamously married. The torso was dumped on the side of the street that had backed onto Frederick Street, then one of the most notorious streets in the East End. How his old Ma must have warned him against the bad women who lived there. If she had herself been an English/Irish cockney born and bred in the area, she might have been more relaxed about what went on in the next street, might even have had family or friends there. But she wasn't, she was the daughter of the butler of a prominent Herefordshire family who had been brought up on the estate of a grand house. One of her sisters was the wife of a clergyman.

And, I suspect, it was of particular significance to whoever dumped the body. It was where torso man chose to reference the WM. (Not quite in Whitechapel, though, he was a few feet out��)

[packers stem]

What cannot be denied is that the Pinchin Street dump site was of particular significance to CAL. It was within sight of the childhood home where he had lived with his 'respectable' Ma and her policeman toyboy whom she had bigamously married. The torso was dumped on the side of the street that had backed onto Frederick Street, then one of the most notorious streets in the East End. How his old Ma must have warned him against the bad women who lived there. If she had herself been an English/Irish cockney born and bred in the area, she might have been more relaxed about what went on in the next street, might even have had family or friends there. But she wasn't, she was the daughter of the butler of a prominent Herefordshire family who had been brought up on the estate of a grand house. One of her sisters was the wife of a clergyman.

And, I suspect, it was of particular significance to whoever dumped the body. It was where torso man chose to reference the WM. (Not quite in Whitechapel, though, he was a few feet out��)

Baffles me how anybody sees anything of significance in this at all .
Had it been dumped in the front room of his old house or even on the doorstep then you may have a point but otherwise it's nothing but straw grasping and the usual ripperology tactic of cherry picking certain facts, no matter how tenuous the link, whilst trying to ignore any that don't promote the particular suspect .
When there's a convincing link between him and the new Scotland yard vault let us know

[Batman]

s the link, whilst trying to ignore any that don't promote the particular suspect .
When there's a convincing link between him and the new Scotland yard vault let us know

They can't get him out there because Pickfords as his workplace is within the plotting radius (and helps create such radius), but New Scotland Yard isn't.

As long as there are two points on opposite ends of the radius containing Whitechapel (say home one end and workplace other end), they can plot any route they wish through Whitechapel, pass any crime scene they want, and give a casual reason why they want that pathway. However, since NSY is so far away, there is no reason to plot him going anywhere outside the radius at all.

[Fisherman]

Furthermore, would everyone's favourite carman have known the layout of the Whitehall building site?

Would he have to? He may or may not have been - for whatever reason -aquainted with it. There is no telling. But the more pertinent question is surely whether somebody unfamilar with the layout could have found his way to the vault in question.

As I understand it, that question cannot be answered either.

[Fisherman]

What cannot be denied is that the Pinchin Street dump site was of particular significance to CAL. It was within sight of the childhood home where he had lived with his 'respectable' Ma and her policeman toyboy whom she had bigamously married. The torso was dumped on the side of the street that had backed onto Frederick Street, then one of the most notorious streets in the East End. How his old Ma must have warned him against the bad women who lived there. If she had herself been an English/Irish cockney born and bred in the area, she might have been more relaxed about what went on in the next street, might even have had family or friends there. But she wasn't, she was the daughter of the butler of a prominent Herefordshire family who had been brought up on the estate of a grand house. One of her sisters was the wife of a clergyman.

And, I suspect, it was of particular significance to whoever dumped the body. It was where torso man chose to reference the WM. (Not quite in Whitechapel, though, he was a few feet out��)

This goes without saying, of course. There can be no denial that Pinchin Street was the backdrop to a significant part of the formative years of young Charles´ life.

Anybody can see it, anybody must recognize it. There is no alternative. We know that he lived there and that his mother did so on more than one occasion, it is on record.

And still, there is a fear of touching amongst people who really should be a tad wiser.

There is a theory about Charles Lechmere being the Whitechapel killer, based on a number of matters that taken together was enough for an ex-murder squad leader and a queens counsel to speak of a "tremendeous interest" and how "a jury would not like" Lechmere, since the coincidences were "one too many". On the net, scores of people have expressed how they think that the case has now been solved.

The outcome? That posters out here speak about how Griffiths and Scobie were manipulated, and how it is a sad thing that innocent people have been fed material to give them the wrong picture.

There are numerous EXTREMELY odd inclusions of eviscerations and flap-cuttings from the abdomen represented in both the Ripper case and the Torso ditto, putting it beyond doubt that any police force would feel compelled to work from the supposition of a common originator.

The outcome out here? That people say that the similarities are coincidental, nothing else.

So who is surprised now that the same choir offers the tune "It is of no significance at all" that the Pinchin Street case offers a link to Charles Lechmere.

Denial. Arrogance. A refusal to accept the obvious. It´s all very much in line with how the overall response to the Lechmere theory has looked from day one.

It is an intellectual corruption that exceeds what can be described as merely ridiculous. It puts many a seasoned poster to shame.

The Pinchin Street torso was found in a street that would have been of great significance to the Lechmere family and Charles himself. That means that the carmans candidacy to be the combined Ripper and Torso killer is elevated. That is the only way it has ever worked, and believe me, it works like that today too. When suspects have ties to places where murder victims are found, it carries weight. Basta.

PS. Thanks to Gary for the information about the two Tiger Bays and Pearly Poll and her blind paramour. Much appreciated.

[Fisherman]

They can't get him out there because Pickfords as his workplace is within the plotting radius (and helps create such radius), but New Scotland Yard isn't.

As long as there are two points on opposite ends of the radius containing Whitechapel (say home one end and workplace other end), they can plot any route they wish through Whitechapel, pass any crime scene they want, and give a casual reason why they want that pathway. However, since NSY is so far away, there is no reason to plot him going anywhere outside the radius at all.

Since Liz Jackson had her neck severed, her uterus taken out and her abdominal wall taken away in large flaps, there is every reason to suggest a common originator for the Ripper murders and the Torso murders. And you know, there goes your suggestion of a fixed radius.

[MrBarnett]

Since Liz Jackson had her neck severed, her uterus taken out and her abdominal wall taken away if large flaps, there is every reason to suggest a common originator for the Ripper murders and the Torso murders. And you know, there goes your suggestion of a fixed radius.

His radius needs to be fixed to the back of Lechmere's cart, not the Broad Street depot.

[Batman]

Since Liz Jackson had her neck severed, her uterus taken out and her abdominal wall taken away if large flaps, there is every reason to suggest a common originator for the Ripper murders and the Torso murders. And you know, there goes your suggestion of a fixed radius.

I don't need a fixed radius. Lechmere has one that needs to get bigger to put him at NSY. The bigger the radius, the more the routes within look but a tiny portion of the myrad of other non-suspicious ways he could have gone like anyone else who lived/worked at two ends of the radius.

Yes, Jackson shows some signs that its the same hand as JtR.

[MrBarnett]

Baffles me how anybody sees anything of significance in this at all .
Had it been dumped in the front room of his old house or even on the doorstep then you may have a point but otherwise it's nothing but straw grasping and the usual ripperology tactic of cherry picking certain facts, no matter how tenuous the link, whilst trying to ignore any that don't promote the particular suspect .
When there's a convincing link between him and the new Scotland yard vault let us know

Charles Lechmere will have, though. Don't you think? Frederick Street in its heyday made Dorset Street look like Berkley Square. I wonder what the first thing was that sprang to his mind when he thought about it.

[Fisherman]

His radius needs to be fixed to the back of Lechmere's cart, not the Broad Street depot.

Well, obviously - unless it can be proven that he was only allowed to cart goods within the radius allowed for by Batman. He was a carman, for heaven´sake! What´s the problem people are having?