Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

[MrBarnett]

I highly doubt that was his role exclusively. What you call a minder I call a thug for hire. Hence the man that would hire him is no better. I'm surprised you don't see it. McCarthy makes the Krays look like babies the deeper one digs.

Why do you doubt that? Have you researched the man extensively?

Of course he was a thug. Do you imagine the doss house keepers employed retired ballet dancers to keep order in their establishments?

Which man do you believe hired him? The only evidence I’ve seen is of him working for Ann McCarthy.

We have a lot of evidence of what the Krays got up to. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what McCarthy did that was worse. He ran doss houses and let rooms to the poorest of the poor; and no doubt there were times when he, his brother or their deputies had to get tough with wayward tenants. He was once convicted alongside 9 other men of aiding and assisting in a prize fight. The evidence wasn’t clear cut, but he plead guilty and was released on his own recognizances. Sgt William Thick provided several of the accused, including McCarthy, with character references.

Where’s your evidence that he ever did anything really bad?

[The Macdonald Triad]

A ‘minder’ is a personal bodyguard. That seems to have been Maher’s role in respect of Ann McCarthy, a widow running businesses in a rough area of London. He claimed that Daniel McCarthy had requested he looked after Ann in his will, but there is no such request in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iq1bejGbGPc

I highly doubt that was his role exclusively. What you call a minder I call a thug for hire. Hence the man that would hire him is no better. I'm surprised you don't see it. McCarthy makes the Krays look like babies the deeper one digs.

[MrBarnett]

This was posted originally on JTRForums:

1. In 1885, we read:

‘The recipient of the cup was Mr John McCarthy of Dorset Street, Spitalfields… This gentleman was also presented with Life governorships of both institutions*…’

*The Victoria Park Hospital and the Queen Adelaide Dispensary. The cup was awarded for collecting the most money for the hospitals.


2. In 1888, we read:

‘Mr McCarthy is spoken of by the police as a most respectable man, and was recently awarded a prize for collecting money for the hospitals.’

3. In 1902, we read:

‘Some years ago Old Jack won a massive silver cup in an open charity competition (32 entries) and several life governorships for several hospitals.’

4. In 1911, we read:

‘Mr Jack McCarthy is a Life Governor of many hospitals, and was presented with a silver cup twenty-five years ago for collecting more money than any Life Governor.’


Are 1, 2, 3 and 4 descriptions of the same man? I think they are. Scott is adamant, with no evidence that I’m aware of, that 2. was a ‘rent collector’ while 3. and 4. was the ‘Esq’ who attended Abberline’s retirement.

Note: I should add that the 1888 Central News report that speaks of McCarthy collecting money for hospitals also describes him as the owner of the houses in Millers Court.



That’s my last word on the subject. If Scotty wishes to keep banging his head against this brick wall, he’s welcome to do so. Hopefully this thread will veer away from Scotty’s dotty obsession and return to the subject of Mary Ann Austin.

[MrBarnett]

Jack senior and his wife Elizabeth were still living at 27 in 1911. The street by then had been renamed Duval Street. They had a young male servant living with them and they were occupying 5 rooms. There were 3 other households in the building, each occupying a single room.

Going back to 1891, Jack and Elizabeth, four of their children and two servants were occupying 5 or more rooms (there is a pencilled 8 in the number of rooms box). Jack’s brother Daniel and his wife Ann were occupying two rooms and there were two other households each consisting of two adults and one child occupying single rooms.

[MrBarnett]

Henry Lee and Jack McCarthy will give their NINTH Grand Boxing Entertainment. Tickets to be obtained of Jack McCarthy, 27 Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

Sporting Life - Thursday 09 February 1899:



But maybe this was the other John McCarthy.

JM Jun was of course ‘Steve’ McCarthy. He followed in his father’s footsteps in his involvement in boxing. The JM selling the tickets from 27, Dorset Street was presumably his father, who was still living there in 1901.

[seanr]

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

Henry Lee and Jack McCarthy will give their NINTH Grand Boxing Entertainment. Tickets to be obtained of Jack McCarthy, 27 Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

Sporting Life - Thursday 09 February 1899:



But maybe this was the other John McCarthy.

[MrBarnett]

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

And perhaps you could explain how these matches (plural) were illegal.

[MrBarnett]

Exactly. McCarthy was the template of a philanthropist gangster. Not hating BTW.

In what way? There is evidence of McCarthy’s philanthropy. What criminal activity do you imagine he was involved in?

[MrBarnett]

‘Double’ doss houses were often compared to brothels, but that wasn’t their primary function. The people who ran them didn’t care whether the couples who used them were legally married, in stable relationships, or enjoying one night stands with or without a financial incentive.

[MrBarnett]

How so? Don't make me make popcorn lol. I do appreciate your links, Barnett. And everyone contributing. I remember more this way. I'm still surprised by your soft words regarding Maher. "Minder." Babysitter with a gun and knife? We can quibble over McCarthy was a bully or not but I only arrived at my conclusion because of you. The boxing underworld of the East End is notorious. Again thanks to your info. Ching Ghook was very interesting but nothing like Guv'nor McCarthy.

A ‘minder’ is a personal bodyguard. That seems to have been Maher’s role in respect of Ann McCarthy, a widow running businesses in a rough area of London. He claimed that Daniel McCarthy had requested he looked after Ann in his will, but there is no such request in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iq1bejGbGPc

[MrBarnett]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

‘Matches’ plural?

Tell me more.

[The Macdonald Triad]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

Exactly. McCarthy was the template of a philanthropist gangster. Not hating BTW.

[drstrange169]

>>McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.<<

Not to mention his organisation of illegal boxing matches and perhaps the gambling therein involved.

[The Macdonald Triad]

Hilarious!

How so? Don't make me make popcorn lol. I do appreciate your links, Barnett. And everyone contributing. I remember more this way. I'm still surprised by your soft words regarding Maher. "Minder." Babysitter with a gun and knife? We can quibble over McCarthy was a bully or not but I only arrived at my conclusion because of you. The boxing underworld of the East End is notorious. Again thanks to your info. Ching Ghook was very interesting but nothing like Guv'nor McCarthy.

[MrBarnett]

John McCarthy (b. Dieppe, France) is listed as a "Grocer" at 27 Dorset St. in the 1891 census. So is a younger brother, Daniel McCarthy, also at #27. They owned the business, but not the premises (John was likely the principal business owner). A third McCarthy at #27, also named John, was a "General Shop Keeper", born in Spitalfields. He was probably the one who ran the business, and likely collected the rents. Miller's Court was not a group of lodging houses like the well-to-do John McCarthy owned elsewhere in Dorset St. Miller's Court consisted of tenement housing (apartment rooms). This shop keeper John, I contend, was Mary Kelly's landlord and the one who appeared at her inquest, not the entrepreneurial fight-promoter and charity man and lodging house owner.

So there were a couple of business owners at #27, John McCarthy and Daniel, and a shop keeper/landlord named John McCarthy (who had a wife named Mary, and a son, George).

The shop keeper McCarthy ran the grocers from the ground floor of #27, a three-floor building, and probably lived above it. Rented rooms were behind the grocers shop in the court. The second and third floors wouldn't have had more than one or two rooms each. Where did the other McCarthys live?

This is three years after the Kelly murder, so may not reflect the census information in 1891. So why is the business owner, John McCarthy, his wife Elizabeth and their four (recorded at the time) children listed as residing at #27? Information was likely given to the enumerator by one of the other McCarthys that this McCarthy was the principal business owner, so the enumerator recorded the family as resident there.

Question: If someone as well-off as the John McCarthy who owned several lodging houses, and likely owned other businesses as well, could afford to live anywhere but on Dorest Street with his family, would he?

Hilarious!