Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

[MrBarnett]

Presumably the house to the front of 37 is number 38, where Liz Stride was living with Michael Kidney up until she left him a few short days before her death. On the opposite side of the street was the entrance to Miller's Court.
In the photo there is 38 where Liz Stride had been living, 35 Dorset Street where both Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman had been lodging at the time of their death and Miller's Court where Mary Kelly was so cruelly murdered.
So we're supposed to believe a serial killer who murdered five women in the Whitechapel area with a random selection of victims, managed to select four women who lived close enough to one another, for their lodgings to be captured in a single photograph. Quite the coincidence. Almost unbelievable.

And then 13 years later another woman is killed, again with a link to 35 Dorset Street, this time the attack taking place in the premises themselves and the residents actively colluding to mislead the police investigation.

Yes, I do tend to think it is more likely than not that the Annie Austin murder was linked to the previous murders. That doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Annie was murdered by the same person.

38, Dorset Street was next door to 37, on the same side of the street as the entrance to Miller’s Court. Is that what you mean?

[MrBarnett]

Well, there's also the notes George Duckworth takes from his walk around Spitalfields on March the 17th 1898. Where it is written that Jack McCarthy was the keeper of most of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street. Some houses were called 'doubles' but were really brothels. The street was full of thieves, prostitutes and bullies.

https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b351#?cv=57&c=0&m=0&s=0&z=2697.585%2C1753.0042%2C2874.3175%2C1709.5872

Also full of protitutes thieves and ponces were the houses owned by the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street. https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872

But McCarthy didn’t own the majority of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street and in any case a bully wasn’t a lodging house keeper.

And doubles weren’t brothels, but they were places where unmarried couples could get a bed for a night and some of those couples would have been ‘unfortunates’ and their customers.

[The Macdonald Triad]

The man’s name was Harold Hall. The death sentence was commuted to a life sentence. He was released to fight in the First World War and as a result of his service, ended up a free man.

I’m pretty sure they got the right man.

You should work for the JTR Tour site. They don't know what happened to him.

[seanr]

Yes I did. Kitty was killed supposedly by a man sick of being robbed by women, which was bolstered by a penny falling from her hand when being moved. The man turned himself in and was sentenced to death with no death record actually showing up for him.

The man’s name was Harold Hall. The death sentence was commuted to a life sentence. He was released to fight in the First World War and as a result of his service, ended up a free man.

I’m pretty sure they got the right man.

[The Macdonald Triad]

I suspect you may be confusing her murder with Elizabeth Roberts' in Nov 1898.

Yes I did. Kitty was killed supposedly by a man sick of being robbed by women, which was bolstered by a penny falling from her hand when being moved. The man turned himself in and was sentenced to death with no death record actually showing up for him.

[seanr]

This is a great photo. I’m sure many have seen it before. It is said to date from 1895.

The woman is leaning out of the window of 37 and the shop next door with the sheet in front of the window is 36. Daniel McCarthy died of cancer there in the summer of 1895 and I’ve often wondered whether that was the reason for the sheet covering the shop window.

Beyond that is the entrance to Paternoster Row and then, at an angle, the entrance to Crossingham’s 35, Dorset Street establishment.

Apologies for barging into the thread. I’ll now bow out. :-)

Presumably the house to the front of 37 is number 38, where Liz Stride was living with Michael Kidney up until she left him a few short days before her death. On the opposite side of the street was the entrance to Miller's Court.
In the photo there is 38 where Liz Stride had been living, 35 Dorset Street where both Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman had been lodging at the time of their death and Miller's Court where Mary Kelly was so cruelly murdered.
So we're supposed to believe a serial killer who murdered five women in the Whitechapel area with a random selection of victims, managed to select four women who lived close enough to one another, for their lodgings to be captured in a single photograph. Quite the coincidence. Almost unbelievable.

And then 13 years later another woman is killed, again with a link to 35 Dorset Street, this time the attack taking place in the premises themselves and the residents actively colluding to mislead the police investigation.

Yes, I do tend to think it is more likely than not that the Annie Austin murder was linked to the previous murders. That doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Annie was murdered by the same person.

[seanr]

Do you mean McCarthy?


He doesn’t appear remotely like a gangster. The only reference to him being a bully, as far as I know, was from Arthur Harding, a man whose utterances have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Well, there's also the notes George Duckworth takes from his walk around Spitalfields on March the 17th 1898. Where it is written that Jack McCarthy was the keeper of most of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street. Some houses were called 'doubles' but were really brothels. The street was full of thieves, prostitutes and bullies.

https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b351#?cv=57&c=0&m=0&s=0&z=2697.585%2C1753.0042%2C2874.3175%2C1709.5872

Also full of protitutes thieves and ponces were the houses owned by the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street. https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872

[Abby Normal]

This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.

hi harry
good and interesting post as usual. IMHO I think the torsoman and rippers murders ended in 89 with pinchin and mckenzie. Coincidence? to me probably not.

[Harry D]

Ronan was killed by her sister. Pretty straightforward.

I suspect you may be confusing her murder with Elizabeth Roberts' in Nov 1898.

[The Macdonald Triad]

This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.

Ronan was killed by her sister. Pretty straightforward.

[Harry D]

Due to the lack of discussion of this murder and my interest in it I thought I would ask for everyone's opinions on this curious case. Was Austin a victim of JTR years after the main killings? It was the same doss house (35 Dorset St) Chapman stayed at before her death, she [Austin]was attacked while asleep or choked out into unconsciousness (like Chapman possibly was in the Hanbury Street yard) and her private parts attacked. To me it seems the killer may have choked Austin while she was asleep but when he started ripping the pain woke her up. Also, there seems to be a discrepancy regarding what cubicle she was actually in. Another interesting point for those that like John McCarthy as the Ripper. He owned the doss house at 35 Dorset St where Austin was attacked. Any opinions or new info would be appreciated. This link from a competitor site is pretty good for those unfamiliar with the case.

This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.

[MrBarnett]

This is a great photo. I’m sure many have seen it before. It is said to date from 1895.

The woman is leaning out of the window of 37 and the shop next door with the sheet in front of the window is 36. Daniel McCarthy died of cancer there in the summer of 1895 and I’ve often wondered whether that was the reason for the sheet covering the shop window.

Beyond that is the entrance to Paternoster Row and then, at an angle, the entrance to Crossingham’s 35, Dorset Street establishment.

Apologies for barging into the thread. I’ll now bow out. :-)

[MrBarnett]

For reference:

37, Dorset Street was where Mary Ann Austin was living before she was evicted by ‘Mrs McCarthy’. John McCarthy was her landlord.

36, Dorset Street was Annie McCarthy’s shop. She was William Crossingham’s daughter by his first marriage and John McCarthy’s sister-in-law, the widow of his younger brother Daniel.

13, Little Paternoster Row (the ‘Little was dropped in the early 1900s) was where Billy Maher lived.

35, Dorset Street was William Crossingham’s lodging house where Austin was killed. By 1901 Crossingham and his wife Margaret (née Sullivan) had moved out to Romford. 35, DS was managed by a couple named Moore with the help of Margaret’s brother, Daniel Sullivan.

[Azarna]

Were Annie's death in 1888/9, then the possibility that she was another JTR would, imho, be definitely worth considering.

But 13 years later?

OK, maybe JTR was somehow out of action since Mary Kelly. In prison, an asylum, ill, injured, abroad?

Personally, I think that the similar modus operandi isn't enough to assume this was the work of the same guy.

[MrBarnett]

I haven’t looked at the Austin case for some time, but buried in the police files somewhere is a recommendation that a PC should be stationed in Dorset Street at the entrance to Paternoster Row because potential witnesses were being intimidated there. Billy Maher lived in Paternoster Row in a house adjoining Ann McCarthy’s shop at 36, Dorset Street, opposite the entrance to 35, Dorset Street where Ann Austin was attacked.