Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

[drstrange169]

>>And perhaps you could explain how these matches (plural) were illegal.<<

Maybe the fact that he pled guilty to the 1882 one might be an indication.

[drstrange169]

>>‘Matches’ plural? Tell me more. <<

In 1901, it was reported that McCarthy had "backed boxers" for over 30 years. I'm not very good at maths, but doesn't that stretch back further than his pleading guilty in the illegal boxing match court case in 1882?

[seanr]

Do you think in his 35 years in the boxing industry which he did not consent to being published and included supplying prize money for boxers (from post #22 here https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/gene...hy-photo/page2). Do you think he got involved in gambling?

Well, MrBarnett you've only gone and done it... you found the generational link from McCarthy to acknowledged gangsters of the next generation such as Jack Spot and Charles Sabini, with an extra spice of weirdness with William Brogdon Jnr (the son of the Chief Constable of Great Yarmouth, addressee of the strange 14 Dorset Street letter).

[DJA]

Incompetence.

[Joshua Rogan]

Just out of interest, why was 35 Dorset Street put on Polly's death certificate? As far as I remember, no evidence was given at inquest to suggest this was her last known address.

[The Macdonald Triad]

I'd agree that the odds they slept in these doss houses AT SOME TIME in their often many years on the streets, would surely not be that high. But at the time of their deaths?

1. Polly Nichols - address given as 35 Dorset Street on death certificate.
2. Annie Chapman - was resident at 35 Dorset Street on the night of her death. Was kicked out of and found dead on the streets that same night.
3. Liz Stride - resident at 38 Dorset Street until Wednesday, 26th September 1888 when she absconded from the premises to the surprise of her partner Michael Kidney. Found dead on the streets a few nights later on Saturday, the 30th.
4. Mary Kelly - resident at Millers Court, where she was cruelly murdered.

4 out of the 'canonical' five were resident at this houses at the time or within days of their deaths. Not AT SOME TIME during their many years on the streets, but at the time of or within days of their deaths.

The fifth of the 'canonical' five is reputed by some reports to frequently have slept in the shed where the costermonger's barrows were kept at 27 Dorset Street. Perhaps all 5 of the 'canonical' five can be linked to to the houses in the photograph at the time of their deaths.

And then, to bring this back on topic 13 years later...

Mary Ann Austin - resident at 37 Dorset Street until she was kicked out days before her death. Moved into 35 Dorset Street - the same house linked to Polly Nichols and where Annie Chapman resided. Brutally attacked there and both the residents and the staff at the lodging house either misled or withheld information from the investigating police.

Probably just an unfortunate coincidence, I'm sure.

Well put together Sean. Separating "at one time" with at death. Ever heard the expression "don't sh#@ where you eat?" Obviously the Ripper didn't. He really should be called the Dorset Street Ripper.

[The Macdonald Triad]

Yeah the Krays thing was obviously over the top however I see Don King when I think of boxing promoters. And McCarthy lived in a time where mass communication was in its infancy. The fact that the cops supported him means nothing. I have a Fraternal Order of Police sticker on my car, so what? It's called hedging your bets. I wouldn't doubt it in the least if McCarthy supplied his fighters with prostitutes. A good businessman would be ready to coddle his fighters. And getting a fighter to throw a bout. Of course I'm stereotyping but it does work.

[seanr]

"Unfortunates" like the victims moved from doss house to doss house, quite frequently. And each doss house could sleep a lot of people at a time (far more than they were SUPPOSED to).

So the odds of each woman having slept in one of the pictured doss houses AT SOME TIME in their often many years on the streets, would surely not be all that high.

I'd agree that the odds they slept in these doss houses AT SOME TIME in their often many years on the streets, would surely not be that high. But at the time of their deaths?

1. Polly Nichols - address given as 35 Dorset Street on death certificate.
2. Annie Chapman - was resident at 35 Dorset Street on the night of her death. Was kicked out of and found dead on the streets that same night.
3. Liz Stride - resident at 38 Dorset Street until Wednesday, 26th September 1888 when she absconded from the premises to the surprise of her partner Michael Kidney. Found dead on the streets a few nights later on Saturday, the 30th.
4. Mary Kelly - resident at Millers Court, where she was cruelly murdered.

4 out of the 'canonical' five were resident at this houses at the time or within days of their deaths. Not AT SOME TIME during their many years on the streets, but at the time of or within days of their deaths.

The fifth of the 'canonical' five is reputed by some reports to frequently have slept in the shed where the costermonger's barrows were kept at 27 Dorset Street. Perhaps all 5 of the 'canonical' five can be linked to to the houses in the photograph at the time of their deaths.

And then, to bring this back on topic 13 years later...

Mary Ann Austin - resident at 37 Dorset Street until she was kicked out days before her death. Moved into 35 Dorset Street - the same house linked to Polly Nichols and where Annie Chapman resided. Brutally attacked there and both the residents and the staff at the lodging house either misled or withheld information from the investigating police.

Probably just an unfortunate coincidence, I'm sure.

[seanr]

We have a lot of evidence of what the Krays got up to. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what McCarthy did that was worse. He ran doss houses and let rooms to the poorest of the poor; and no doubt there were times when he, his brother or their deputies had to get tough with wayward tenants. He was once convicted alongside 9 other men of aiding and assisting in a prize fight. The evidence wasn’t clear cut, but he plead guilty and was released on his own recognizances. Sgt William Thick provided several of the accused, including McCarthy, with character references.

Where’s your evidence that he ever did anything really bad?

Comparisons to the Krays may well be misplaced, but boxers who may have been associated with him have a tendency to be 'accidentally' killed with a knife or to disappear. It's perhaps notable too that his known interests align so closely with Frederick Geringher (whose own descendants believe to have been a 'crime lord'), both men let barrows to Spitalfields market, both were involved in boxing and, of course, both ran lodging houses.

Duckworth noted about the two men during his walks with Sergeant French of H Division around the district: https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...63%2C1905.3564

The Great Pearl Street district remains as black as it was 10 years ago. As the Dorset Street district belongs to a dweller in it 'MacCarthy' so this belongs to 'Geringer' inhabitant of Little Pearl Street.

Do you think in his 35 years in the boxing industry which he did not consent to being published and included supplying prize money for boxers (from post #22 here https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/gene...hy-photo/page2). Do you think he got involved in gambling?

[MrBarnett]

Another old post from JTRForums:

The last piece of the puzzle - for now at least - is the conversation supposedly overheard by the witness James Schulty (Schultz) in the Princess Alice pub on Commercial Street shortly after the murder of Mary Ann Austin (ńee Mealey):


'I tell you McCarthy was with her before the husband.'

'What you mean the Dorset Street murder?'

'Yes and I know McCarthy was with her.'


The first time I read that I took it to mean that a man named McCarthy had had a relationship with Mary Ann Mealey before she met/married William Austin rather than being a reference to someone being with her on the night of the murder. The Chelsea-born Emily Mealey found by Rob Clack working in a Shoreditch pub in 1891 is very likely the woman we are interested in and it seems her parents were married in Stepney, so she may well have had a relationship with an East End McCarthy before she married.

Obviously any mention of the name McCarthy in a Dorset Street context immediately brings John/Jack to mind. But without the Christian name it could have been a reference to any McCarthy - John's brother, Daniel, for example.

Dr Oliver, who carried out the PM on Austin, noted evidence of ‘old standing syphilis’.

Perhaps the McCarthy who was ‘with her’ before her husband transmitted it to her - or she to him.

If this McCarthy had been infected by Austin, and had been married, his wife may well have harboured a grudge against Mary Ann.

[MrBarnett]

Another old post from JTRForums:

The last piece of the puzzle - for now at least - is the conversation supposedly overheard by the witness James Schulty (Schultz) in the Princess Alice pub on Commercial Street shortly after the murder of Mary Ann Austin (ńee Mealey):


'I tell you McCarthy was with her before the husband.'

'What you mean the Dorset Street murder?'

'Yes and I know McCarthy was with her.'


The first time I read that I took it to mean that a man named McCarthy had had a relationship with Mary Ann Mealey before she met/married William Austin rather than being a reference to someone being with her on the night of the murder. The Chelsea-born Emily Mealey found by Rob Clack working in a Shoreditch pub in 1891 is very likely the woman we are interested in and it seems her parents were married in Stepney, so she may well have had a relationship with an East End McCarthy before she married.

Obviously any mention of the name McCarthy in a Dorset Street context immediately brings John/Jack to mind. But without the Christian name it could have been a reference to any McCarthy - John's brother, Daniel, for example.

[MrBarnett]

It’s such a pity that the 1897 case against Billy and two others for attacking Margaret Sullivan and ‘Bertie’ Crossingham was dropped. If it had gone to full trial, many of the uncertainties about the politics in Dorset Street ca 1900 might have been clarified. Who was Billy working for then? It was said at the time that the motive of the attack was a long-standing grudge. Who might have held a grudge against Maggie Sullivan, who by then was William Crossingham’s ‘psuedo wife’?

I think the most likely candidate is Ann McCarthy. She may well have feared (correctly as it turned out) that Maggie would marry her father and appropriate her legacy.

[MrBarnett]

On one occasion when two women were fighting in Dorset Street Billy intervened. One of the women had a knife and stabbed the other. The crowd that had gathered to enjoy the entertainment obediently parted to allow Billy through. He stopped the fight, placed the injured woman on a barrow, disarmed the other woman and gave her into the custody of the police when they arrived.

That was Billy’s main job, keeping order in Dorset Street/Thrawl Street.

[MrBarnett]

I should add of course, that Billy spoke of Daniel McCarthy as his ‘guvnor’. Billy claimed that in his will (1895) Daniel had requested he stuck to Ann as long as he could. Which of course he did. ‘I look after her and see she ain’t insulted. I’m one of the fixtures there’, he said in 1911.

There is nothing in Daniel’s will to support Billy’s claim.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s Billy in 1921, living with and working for Ann McCarthy in Thrawl Street. He was still living with and working for her when he died four years later. He was described on his death certificate as a lodging house night porter.