The Double Event

[erobitha]

The timing of the Stride murder is one factor that points to a different killer

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Seems to you that you could set your clock by the number of murders by throat cuttings in Whitechapel during that time. "There will be another one just like it in a minute". Then there was. What were the chances?

Evidence on throat-cutting murders has already been demonstrated Trevor. They were not as regular as you seem to make out.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

If there was some highly individual detail that showed beyond reasonable doubt that Eddowes and Stride were killed with the same knife then of course we would have to say that they were very probably killed by the same man (apologies for stating the obvious) If it could be shown that they were killed by at least the same type/size of knife then I’d say that we could say no more than they could have been killed by the same man. But if they were killed with provably different knives would that prove that they were killed by different culprits? I’d say that it would increase the likelihood but I don’t think that we could show any great level of certainty. The Zodiac killer for example used different guns an other weapons. The killer might have had a collection of knives.

I certainly agree though that the knife question gets us no further in deciding if The Double Event was a Double Event or not. I certainly wouldn’t put much money on it either way.

Hi Herlock,

Yes, that's a sound assessment. We can't say for sure that JtR didn't carry more than one knife on him, so different knives, while probably adding to the suggestion that Stride might not be a victim of JtR, certainly wouldn't constitute definitive proof. On the other hand, if it were somehow possible to prove the same knife was used in both Stride's and Eddowes' murder, then that would all but cinch it (the "out", if you will, being two murderers working as a team, and sharing the same knife - immagination can always come up with something ). Same type of knife, is a weaker version (but a more realistic one to think might be possible - how one would prove it was the same knife with the type of evidence we have available to us now is beyond my creative thinking abilities, and even in a present day case it would take a stroke of luck to be able to do so. There would have to be some transfer of something from the knife, say part of the handle, etc, found at both crime scenes that was then proven to have a common source, etc).

Anyway, fanciful ideas aside, given the evidence we have, I think we're left, yet again, with an inconclusive state of affairs. I don't see any strong evidence ruling out the same knife being used, but at the same time, I don't see anything that precludes different knives either.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

But the other factors of the Stride murder in my opinion point to a different killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Be that as it may, those other factors are not the topic of this thread, which was started specifically on the idea that different knives might have been used. It's since been discussed whether or not that starting point is justified. While the answer to that issue has implications on the bigger picture, which you're getting at and I've mentioned as well, that bigger picture is covered in many other threads. In this one, it's only relevant when tied to the evidence we have for same/different knife. The other factors, while important to consider, are best left for threads on those issues. Otherwise, as happens far too often, we end up with good information that gets lost because it ends up presented in the wrong thread.

- Jeff

[Dickere]

Hi Jeff,

If there was some highly individual detail that showed beyond reasonable doubt that Eddowes and Stride were killed with the same knife then of course we would have to say that they were very probably killed by the same man (apologies for stating the obvious) If it could be shown that they were killed by at least the same type/size of knife then I’d say that we could say no more than they could have been killed by the same man. But if they were killed with provably different knives would that prove that they were killed by different culprits? I’d say that it would increase the likelihood but I don’t think that we could show any great level of certainty. The Zodiac killer for example used different guns an other weapons. The killer might have had a collection of knives.

I certainly agree though that the knife question gets us no further in deciding if The Double Event was a Double Event or not. I certainly wouldn’t put much money on it either way.

I feel that if different knives were used - which I previously read elsewhere but seems less certain to people here - I'd suggest it strongly points to a different killer. Assuming he didn't pop home for a knife change, or take more than one with him, it feels much more likely to be a different killer. IMHO. To be a 'double event' you'd want your work noticed, not potentially diluted by the chance of it being unconnected due to use of a different knife.

[Dickere]

Hi Trevor,

Be that as it may, those other factors are not the topic of this thread, which was started specifically on the idea that different knives might have been used. It's since been discussed whether or not that starting point is justified. While the answer to that issue has implications on the bigger picture, which you're getting at and I've mentioned as well, that bigger picture is covered in many other threads. In this one, it's only relevant when tied to the evidence we have for same/different knife. The other factors, while important to consider, are best left for threads on those issues. Otherwise, as happens far too often, we end up with good information that gets lost because it ends up presented in the wrong thread.

- Jeff

I feel I agree Jeff. I can see every specific thread can go off in various directions and we end up with similar discussions everywhere. If there is a specific point/question for a thread it would be useful to try not to deviate too much from it ideally.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I feel that if different knives were used - which I previously read elsewhere but seems less certain to people here - I'd suggest it strongly points to a different killer. Assuming he didn't pop home for a knife change, or take more than one with him, it feels much more likely to be a different killer. IMHO. To be a 'double event' you'd want your work noticed, not potentially diluted by the chance of it being unconnected due to use of a different knife.

Hi Dickere, and welcome to the boards.

"To be a double event, you'd want your work noticed"

It was. It's purely due to latter day Ripperologists that it's disputed.
If the 'double' was by one individual, then job done, the media and police of the day saw it as such. If he used two different knives, then it made no difference. So the argument that a double killer must use the same knife is void.

Penetrative stabs, depth, width, could be linked to a particular weapon (see Tabram), but slashes and drawn out cuts not so. Even by today's standards, a slash would be impossible to link to a particular type of blade.

[Dickere]

Hi Dickere, and welcome to the boards.

"To be a double event, you'd want your work noticed"

It was. It's purely due to latter day Ripperologists that it's disputed.
If the 'double' was by one individual, then job done, the media and police of the day saw it as such. If he used two different knives, then it made no difference. So the argument that a double killer must use the same knife is void.

Penetrative stabs, depth, width, could be linked to a particular weapon (see Tabram), but slashes and drawn out cuts not so. Even by today's standards, a slash would be impossible to link to a particular type of blade.

Thanks, and you make a good point. At the time it was seen as the same person, so job done regardless of weapon.

For our discussion now though, I still find it hard to believe that if the knife was different it was the same person. You have your trusty blade and you stick to it, especially in such a short timeframe.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

I suppose that a comparison of the wounds inflicted on Stride and Eddowes might seem, at first glance, to be somewhat similar; probably all wounds made from a cut throat would likely appear somewhat similar. Be that as it may, there was an important difference between the wounds: the depths of the cuts.

With Eddowes the cut on the left side goes through all the deep structures of the neck and to the bone, with the vertebral cartilage being scored. We see this same deep, to the bone, cut with Nichols, Chapman and Kelly but not with Stride. Stride’s wound is comparatively shallow. With Eddowes, therefore, “death was Immediate,” or “instantaneous,” as Dr. Sequeira put it, while with Stride “She would have bled to death comparatively slowly.” This seems to be the difference between a killer who wants a quick, efficient death (as in the deaths of Nichols, Chapman Eddowes and Kelly) and one who didn’t appear to care about quickness or efficiency.

There is also the view, made by both Dr. Phillips and Dr. Blackwell, that they had seen “several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one,” (Dr. Phillips) and “I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self inflicted.” (Dr. Blackwell). In fact, Blackwell pointed out that the absence of “any instrument in the hand” made it impossible to be suicide. In other words, he might have considered Stride’s death a suicide if her body had been found with a knife.

As for whether two different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes murders, the answer, based on the forensic evidence, point to two very different knives having been used.

This is one of the questions I see time and time again. The answer, however, is not served up on a plate. At least three different inquests have to be examined, medical testimony and also forensic methodology of cause and effect have to be understood and you have to follow the opinions and logic of the medical witnesses.

Without going into great detail (read my article “My Knife’s So Nice and Sharp,” in The Whitechapel Journal #87 for that), Drs. Phillips and Blackwell concluded, based on the forensic evidence, that the knife used in the Stride murder was likely fairly short. In fact Phillips described it as being “A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well ground knife…” The knife used in the Eddowes murder was described by Dr. Brown as being “a sharp knife, which must have been pointed, and at least six inches long.” Could these not be the same thing? According to Phillips’s testimony at the Chapman inquest they weren’t.

At the Chapman inquest Phillips described the knife used as likely being “a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer,” (something like the knife used on Eddowes). When asked by the Coroner if it might be the type of knife used by cobblers or anyone in the leather trades (i.e. shoemakers), Phillips said “I think the knife used in those trades would not be long enough in the blade.” A shoemaker’s knife, as envisaged by Dr. Phillips, was shorter than six inches.

Therefore, the knife likely used in the Stride murder: short, and also well ground, does not match the knife used in the Eddowes, Nichols, Chapman or Kelly murders. Anyone can choose to ignore this if it doesn’t agree with preconceived ideas but the evidence of two different knives is there.

Wolf.

[Dickere]

I suppose that a comparison of the wounds inflicted on Stride and Eddowes might seem, at first glance, to be somewhat similar; probably all wounds made from a cut throat would likely appear somewhat similar. Be that as it may, there was an important difference between the wounds: the depths of the cuts.

With Eddowes the cut on the left side goes through all the deep structures of the neck and to the bone, with the vertebral cartilage being scored. We see this same deep, to the bone, cut with Nichols, Chapman and Kelly but not with Stride. Stride’s wound is comparatively shallow. With Eddowes, therefore, “death was Immediate,” or “instantaneous,” as Dr. Sequeira put it, while with Stride “She would have bled to death comparatively slowly.” This seems to be the difference between a killer who wants a quick, efficient death (as in the deaths of Nichols, Chapman Eddowes and Kelly) and one who didn’t appear to care about quickness or efficiency.

There is also the view, made by both Dr. Phillips and Dr. Blackwell, that they had seen “several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one,” (Dr. Phillips) and “I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self inflicted.” (Dr. Blackwell). In fact, Blackwell pointed out that the absence of “any instrument in the hand” made it impossible to be suicide. In other words, he might have considered Stride’s death a suicide if her body had been found with a knife.

As for whether two different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes murders, the answer, based on the forensic evidence, point to two very different knives having been used.

This is one of the questions I see time and time again. The answer, however, is not served up on a plate. At least three different inquests have to be examined, medical testimony and also forensic methodology of cause and effect have to be understood and you have to follow the opinions and logic of the medical witnesses.

Without going into great detail (read my article “My Knife’s So Nice and Sharp,” in The Whitechapel Journal #87 for that), Drs. Phillips and Blackwell concluded, based on the forensic evidence, that the knife used in the Stride murder was likely fairly short. In fact Phillips described it as being “A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well ground knife…” The knife used in the Eddowes murder was described by Dr. Brown as being “a sharp knife, which must have been pointed, and at least six inches long.” Could these not be the same thing? According to Phillips’s testimony at the Chapman inquest they weren’t.

At the Chapman inquest Phillips described the knife used as likely being “a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer,” (something like the knife used on Eddowes). When asked by the Coroner if it might be the type of knife used by cobblers or anyone in the leather trades (i.e. shoemakers), Phillips said “I think the knife used in those trades would not be long enough in the blade.” A shoemaker’s knife, as envisaged by Dr. Phillips, was shorter than six inches.

Therefore, the knife likely used in the Stride murder: short, and also well ground, does not match the knife used in the Eddowes, Nichols, Chapman or Kelly murders. Anyone can choose to ignore this if it doesn’t agree with preconceived ideas but the evidence of two different knives is there.

Wolf.

Thanks Wolf, you've detailed the sort of thing I'd read previously. Ergo, for me it feels like a different killer.

[JeffHamm]

Thanks Wolf, you've detailed the sort of thing I'd read previously. Ergo, for me it feels like a different killer.

Hi Dickere,

Yes, Wolf outlines some of the differences, and indeed, the cut to Eddowes is deeper. That being said, the vessels on the right side of Eddowes were only just touched (a small hole was opened on the right side), while in Stride's case those vessels were not damaged at all. Other aspects of the cut, starting point, angle, distance from jaw line, etc, are remarkably similar (you can find the medical reports and compare the descriptions between them, they read very similar). So while Eddowes' wound goes deeper, that could very well just reflect situational differences between the murders, while the "way" in which the wounds were inflicted appear to be remarkably similar.

Also, the proffered descriptions of the knife used in each case are opinions, and even now it is very very difficult to get accurate information about the size of a knife used to do a slashing cut as we have in these murders. Often the limits, so shortest and longest blade for example, is the best one can do. With Stride, the shortest would be the ground-down shoemaker's knife (for example), but the longest is somewhere in the vicinity of 10" as I recall (there was a knife found, dull blade, which I recall as being considered as probably being too long to have been used easily in the Stride murder, along with being too dull, but it is only considered as "unlikely" not impossible, which to me suggests were around the maximum length limit description). Taking both opinions, we have roughly an idea of the shortest and longest knife that might have been used to murder Stride. And that range I think can be argued to overlap with the range one would come to for Eddowes (though, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever looked to see what information we have concerning such a range in the Eddowes' case, so that's worth trying to determine, but the 6" blade mention certainly falls within the range described for Stride's murder). Given that, we're back to being unable to conclude the knives must have been different, though there are statements that allow for them to have been as Wolf has pointed out. One of the things about the JtR cases is that we have such limited information, a lot of the trails of ideas we follow end up at that point, information that doesn't really rule out enough to draw a firm conclusion. There are some points where we can, but those are relatively few and far between.

As a result, the same information will lead people to draw different conclusions. As for myself, I'm rather reluctant to draw conclusions and tend to be more interested in finding the "fuzzy points", which this is an example of, which is something to keep in mind when reading what I post.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Wolf, you've detailed the sort of thing I'd read previously. Ergo, for me it feels like a different killer.

hi dickere
theres some debate on if two knives were used on Tabram and i dont think its that crazy an idea that a serial killer who likes to cut up women would carry more than one knife. imho he probably did.

and then you have to take into consideration the circs surrounding the stride attack, as it seems she wasnt going easily into the night with the ripper, and seems to have put up more of a fight, which may have affected the effectiveness and depth of the neck wound.

and taking into account that all the witnesses descriptions are pretty similar across both attacks, including the killer wearing a peaked cap, and im confident that if two knives were used they were by the same man.

[erobitha]

Hi Dickere,

Yes, Wolf outlines some of the differences, and indeed, the cut to Eddowes is deeper. That being said, the vessels on the right side of Eddowes were only just touched (a small hole was opened on the right side), while in Stride's case those vessels were not damaged at all. Other aspects of the cut, starting point, angle, distance from jaw line, etc, are remarkably similar (you can find the medical reports and compare the descriptions between them, they read very similar). So while Eddowes' wound goes deeper, that could very well just reflect situational differences between the murders, while the "way" in which the wounds were inflicted appear to be remarkably similar.

Also, the proffered descriptions of the knife used in each case are opinions, and even now it is very very difficult to get accurate information about the size of a knife used to do a slashing cut as we have in these murders. Often the limits, so shortest and longest blade for example, is the best one can do. With Stride, the shortest would be the ground-down shoemaker's knife (for example), but the longest is somewhere in the vicinity of 10" as I recall (there was a knife found, dull blade, which I recall as being considered as probably being too long to have been used easily in the Stride murder, along with being too dull, but it is only considered as "unlikely" not impossible, which to me suggests were around the maximum length limit description). Taking both opinions, we have roughly an idea of the shortest and longest knife that might have been used to murder Stride. And that range I think can be argued to overlap with the range one would come to for Eddowes (though, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever looked to see what information we have concerning such a range in the Eddowes' case, so that's worth trying to determine, but the 6" blade mention certainly falls within the range described for Stride's murder). Given that, we're back to being unable to conclude the knives must have been different, though there are statements that allow for them to have been as Wolf has pointed out. One of the things about the JtR cases is that we have such limited information, a lot of the trails of ideas we follow end up at that point, information that doesn't really rule out enough to draw a firm conclusion. There are some points where we can, but those are relatively few and far between.

As a result, the same information will lead people to draw different conclusions. As for myself, I'm rather reluctant to draw conclusions and tend to be more interested in finding the "fuzzy points", which this is an example of, which is something to keep in mind when reading what I post.

- Jeff

Two words unite all the C5. "Left carotid".

One knife. One killer.

He was not walking around Whitechapel like a cutlery drawer. It need only needed to be sharp.

Both at the tip and along the blade itself. The blade most likely towards the tip end was used to sever the artery for the admin of death. In Stride's case it was to get it done and move on. Hence he did not go beyond the basics. He did actually leaving a trailing gash on the neck from left to right for effect, but it was merely superficial. On Eddowes he was much more creative as we know. The extraction of the kidney would require a sharp enough blade to get to it effectively.

6-8 inch blade with a sharp edge and sharp tip. Like a shorter version of a cutlass. He most likely had a leather sheave that the knife resided in as he transported it around. My guess would it was most likely attached to the inside of the left arm sleeve of his overcoat. Simply reach inside the jacket and withdraw.

[rjpalmer]

Two words unite all the C5. "Left carotid".

Do they?

"The saturated condition of the paliasse, pillow, sheet, at the top corner nearest the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery was the immediate cause of her death..."

George Bagster Phillips, at the inquest of Mary Kelly.

[erobitha]

Do they?

"The saturated condition of the paliasse, pillow, sheet, at the top corner nearest the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery was the immediate cause of her death..."

George Bagster Phillips, at the inquest of Mary Kelly.

Sometimes I make it too far too easy for you R.J. The two words are "Carotid Artery". How's that?

[rjpalmer]

It's very easy to misstep, Ero. There's 11 different crime scenes in the Whitechapel Murder files and a lifetime of information to digest.

Personally, I think the Kelly murder humbles all of us.

It seems overwhelmingly obvious that she must have been a victim of the same 'core' murderer, yet the crime's most basic element--the throat slash--is made in the opposite direction of the other 1888 murders.

So we are either looking at a different murderer, or we must admit that 'm.o.' isn't the cut-and-dry evidence that some would wish us to believe.