Is that MJK's leg bone in the crime scene photo?

[Losmandris]

It's a mixture of both, to be honest! Her face was horrifically mutilated with most of her features cut off or hacked. But, like I said, the image is already degraded by being copied dozens of times so any detail that MIGHT have been obvious in the original photo would have diminished and the loss would have been magnified as the resolution was increased and the image was 'up-scaled'.
What is needed is a good clean original but I doubt one is available online or even in a private collection.

Have to pop along to the black museum when it's open to the public and see if one might obtain a good copy!

I will see if I can pull some strings!

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

There would also be knife marks on the maxillary bones of the skull from the excision of most of her face.

Prosector

Once again...excision of most of her face implies removal...Bond: "face gashed...eyebrows and ears partly removed".

[DJA]

This is part of Bond's reply to Anderson on 10 November after examining the first four victims' records for two weeks.

Obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.


2. All the circumstances surrounding the murders lead me to form the opinion that the women must have been lying down when murdered and in every case the throat was first cut.
3. In the four murders of which I have seen the notes only, I cannot form a very definite opinion as to the time that had elapsed between the murder and the discovering of the body.In one case, that of Berner's Street, the discovery appears to have been made immediately after the deed - In Buck's Row, Hanbury Street, and Mitre Square three or four hours only could have elapsed.


Wynne Weston Davies (Prosector) however is a real expert.

He visited this site yesterday.

I had a tumor removed almost two years ago.
It was an excision.
Bond would have seen a gash.

Fortunately three people stitched it up.

[The Rookie Detective]

One thing I do notice from the first photo is that the top bed covers are bunched under/below her legs but the bottom sheets and pillow remain in place underneath her. To me it looks like she had been in bed with the covers over her at some point that night. She either got out of bed - pushing the covers to the bottom half of the bed - and the killer then pushed her back down onto the bed to kill her or she was in bed when she was killed and the killer uncovered her to carry out the other mutilations. She wasn't just on the bed when she was killed, it looks like she had actually gone to bed.

i believe she was actually asleep when she was attacked and briefly managed to cry out “oh murder” as the ripper began to strangle her.

her body looks like she is laying in a sleeping position; aside from her legs of course which have been prized open.

the injuries inflicted are beyond human


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

That's because he's Dave's suspect, and Dave's alone.

The Mitre Square reference he makes is genuinely interesting, look up Sutton's obituary in the BMJ, and you'll find what can only be described as the only on paper explanation for how the killer did what he did in the near total darkness, so quickly that night.

Fascinating character Sutton, certainly ticks a few boxes.

Have just read Sutton’s obituary word for word for the very first time...

Now I must admit that Sutton is someone who I was aware of but had never considered...


the one thing I can’t shake off from reading it is that feeling that the author of the obituary is desperately trying to tell the reader that Sutton was a very strange individual.

I say this because; ironically, the author is overemphasising Sutton’s good side and qualities whilst constantly hinting that they want to say something more damning by can’t for whatever reason.

it almost feels as though they want us to read between the lines and understand that Sutton was the polar opposite of how they are being portrayed.

the clue comes from the overemphasis on the good and the seemingly passive aggressive wording used by the author; like they are trying to hold back from screaming out of the page that Sutton was a dark soul.


is it the first time that I have read an article which has made me feel uneasy.

Sutton had a direct connection with more than one victim

he has surgical knowledge

he was in close proximity to the victims as he spent most of his time at the hospital I.e was in the area for all the murders.

he also appears; based on this article, to have a self righteous personal drive to pursue, explore, attack, cut out, expose and understand disease through it’s intricate mechanics and life span from beginning to end, through theory and practical means.

now if the ripper considered his victims to be a “disease” ergo, needed to be pursued, explored, attacked, cut out, exposed and understood from its beginning to its end, then that’s potentially a motive for killing in the first place.


Kelly for example.


I have never felt It was personal, due to the extreme dehumanising. The killers MO feels more mechanical, ritualistic and methodical.

cold, complex and without any personal connection to the victim.

obliterating Kelly goes way beyond a crime of passion or enraged lover, it’s more like a ritualistic slaughter of an animal, explores and exposed to the world for what he felt they really were; heartless, gutless and faceless.


Sutton just feels like he should be considered VERY MUCH like a suspect.


The key to unravelling Sutton as the ripper starts entirely from the fact he was connected directly to more than one victim.

Find the connections to the victims

They were chosen and picked for a reason.


Sutton is a contender for sure



TRD

[DJA]

They picked him.

A careful look implies he was bisexual. Two years hard labor.

Look at Dr Morgan Davies theory given to D'Onstyn,who became addicted to chloral hydrate.

Nichols and Eddowes were also his inpatients from December 1867.That's why Nichols moved next door just before Eddowes went hopping. Look where Nichols was murdered soon after. Eddowes knew who Jack was. Look at the job he did on her.

Mary Kelly's body was sent to the Shoreditch Vestry Board Mortuary,where he was medical officer since Mary Ann Kelly was about 9.She was 29 when murdered.

RLS wrote his novella because Sutton was a hypocrite. Lots of clues in that. The young girl trampled? Queer Street?

RLS was a history buff. This Edward Hyde was Lord Cornbury.

Um ..... Henry G Kill.

[DJA]

i believe she was actually asleep when she was attacked and briefly managed to cry out “oh murder” as the ripper began to strangle her.

her body looks like she is laying in a sleeping position; aside from her legs of course which have been prized open.

the injuries inflicted are beyond human


TRD

Drugged by Blotchy.

Sent in to ensure Barnett had moved out.

Hutchinson's story had her out and about. He was the lookout.

There were three of them that morning.

[Michael W Richards]

Drugged by Blotchy.

Sent in to ensure Barnett had moved out.

Hutchinson's story had her out and about. He was the lookout.

There were three of them that morning.

I think that its pretty clear this murder likely involved more than one man, agreed. I also agree that the lookout seen was likely the reason for the issuance of the Pardon for Accomplices offer the next day. Warrens last official act I believe.

There are some issues on timing that could be cleared up by a Blotchy primer.. with lookout, and then the killer arriving after that..say around 3:45ish. Which implies that the lookout likely reported the all clear to the killer. It would be interesting to see if any pairs of men were seen on nearby streets around that early morning time frame. Lookout waits for Blotchy, they leave, report, killer returns.

One thing Ill dispute is the assumption that Hutchinson is actually wideawake, I believe the wideawake sighting created an opportunity that Hutchinson took. He made what appeared to be a lookout at a murder site to being a pal who was only looking out for Marys safety. He made it look like a solo mission by doing that. Asty man, without help.

[DJA]

Hutchinson doesn't even need to have been there.

If Blotchy has slipped Mary Kelly a Mickey Finn,all that's required is his story that she was out and about.

Hutch's stupid detailed description implies that he wasn't.
There is also the pub name being changed.

Six of one,half a dozen of the other.

Who was "wideawake" and what was he doing at that time of the morning?

[The Rookie Detective]

Was Chloral Hydrate used on horses?


ergo, a horse tranquilizer?


And could it have been administered via a Ginger Beer bottle?


I mean, i have always been curious as to the specific mention of Ginger Beer Bottles and so when combined with the potential use of Chloral Hydrate, it would make sense as to why there the Ripper always appeared to work in relative silence and with little or no audible reaction form Kelly.


So here/s another question that springs to mind...


While it has been firmly established that the victims were strangled before the cutting began; explaining the reduction of arterial and venal flow post mortem, is there a possibility that ALL the victims were drugged first?


Let's imagine this scenario.


The victims weren't chosen on a whim, but were specifically targeted.

Am i correct in saying that many if not all of the victims were seen leaving a public house shortly after being killed?

Could an accomplices have drugged Nichols, Chapman etc... before they met with the ripper?

How long would it take for the Chloral Hydrate to work?


Could the use of a drug have been the primer so as to physically incapacitate the victims before the ripper strangled them?


An equivalent scenario to a modern day "date rape"... except this was "date murder"


What's interesting is that i currently have another thread looking at the use of Ginger Beer Bottles, but have never combined the theory that the contecnts may have been doctored in order to aid the killer in carrying out his work more effectively.


As an aside, what i find even more fascinating is that one of the prime suspects; Lechmere, worked as a Carman, his mother was a horse flesh dealer, but his neighbor was a Ginger Beer Maker called George Hostler.

George Hostler had a brother called Isaac Hostler who accused of stealing a horse and was subsequently convicted at the Old Bailey of selling dodgy "WATER"... he essentially tried to sell "Mineral Water" but was caught out for it being dodgy...


On George Hostlers marriage certificate it very much looks like he has written the word "Jac" over the top the word 'Parish' ...


It makes me now wonder whether "JACK" was a network of individuals, including local tradesman, public officials, criminals and even Police, who were part of some kind of secret order; with Sutton being the the main man and the head of the snake so to speak.

When you combine the thread of Chloral Hydrate; essentially a horse sedative, being administered through the use of Ginger Beer bottles containing doctored contents to incapacitate prey, then it goes some way to explaining that maybe, just maybe, some of the threads on this site are more linked than we care to realize. The connection with horses,the constant contradictions in so called "witness" statements, the MO of the killer, the written correspondences seemingly written by different hands, the way the killer seemed to vanish without trace, there are so many aspects of this case which are often overlooked or taken for granted.


For me, Sutton is the prime candidate, but i also believe that if the Kelly murder was undertaken by a group of individuals working together, then that has to be the SAME for all the killings.

Nichols for example, murdered yards away from a Horse Slaughterer, last seen alive (allegedly) by Lechmere who was a Carman and whose mother was a Horse Flesh Dealer, Nichols herself wore an Ulster with Buttons with a pattern of a woman on a horse accompanied by a man.

All small seemingly insignificant details, but when you add those to the entire theory of Sutton and a secret network, then it adds a whole new layer into the mix.

I've always been suspicious of Lechmere and Paul

And the Hostler brothers.


There's so much about this case hasn't even been discovered yet.



The case continues


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

I think that its pretty clear this murder likely involved more than one man, agreed. I also agree that the lookout seen was likely the reason for the issuance of the Pardon for Accomplices offer the next day. Warrens last official act I believe.

The main reason to pardon accomplices would be because you're trying to catch the big fish OR there are police or police informants involved. It certainly does seem suspicious that Warren would do that



TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

So if we say that each murder would need 3 or 4 people.


The killer - Sutton

The initiator (to entice the victim)- Blotchy face/Lechmere etc...

The Witness (corroboration) - Hutchinson/Paul/ etc...


While the Kelly case feels like there are multiple people involved, this theory only holds water if this occurred for all the victims.

And despite the theory of multiple people being involved i believe it is almost certain that there was only ONE ripper.


TRD

[Michael W Richards]

Hutchinson doesn't even need to have been there.

If Blotchy has slipped Mary Kelly a Mickey Finn,all that's required is his story that she was out and about.

Hutch's stupid detailed description implies that he wasn't.
There is also the pub name being changed.

Six of one,half a dozen of the other.

Who was "wideawake" and what was he doing at that time of the morning?

There is physical evidence Mary resisted the attack to some degree, hows that fit in with the Mickey? If she is drugged, why not drugged to the state of unconsciousness?

[DJA]

While the Kelly case feels like there are multiple people involved, this theory only holds water if this occurred for all the victims.

TRD

Nope.

Kelly was indoors and had had a big boyfriend protecting her.

The others were outdoors without protection,possibly except Stride.Reckon BS Man was muscle.

[DJA]

There is physical evidence Mary resisted the attack to some degree, hows that fit in with the Mickey? If she is drugged, why not drugged to the state of unconsciousness?

If chloral hydrate was used, it would depend on how much she consumed and what tolerance she had.