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Is that MJK's leg bone in the crime scene photo?

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  • #16
    Brilliant reconstruction DJA.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by E.J.H. View Post
      Thanks for high-quality photo DJA. Personally, I'm still trying to figure the extent of damages to her face, I can't even spot her features.
      Same here? Where is her mouth for example? Which way is here face pointing even? Grim I know but as much as I look I just cant make anything out.

      Tristan
      Last edited by Losmandris; 07-27-2020, 01:45 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by TheTypeWriter View Post
        See it within the centre of this red circle? I'm sure I see an eye quite clearly. It's haunting.
        A reporter in the Pall Mall Gazette said that she looked like the horrific exhibition models of the medical cliniques, so in all probability not one but both eyes were cleary visible and open. And yes, it is haunting.

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        • #19
          Damn, that is a good high res scan. Thanks DJA. Something so awful got even more awful.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
            Hi Curious Cat,

            "How would they have transferred her [MJK's] body from the bed into the casket they used to take her out of Miller's Court?"

            That is a very smart question.

            I'm willing to bet that you'll now receive an assortment of knowledgeable but very different answers based upon how long rigor mortis persists in the body.

            Stay safe.

            Simon
            Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

            Hi Simon,

            Would rigor even apply that much in this case (whoever she may be) given the extreme damage to the leg muscles?

            Or is there a nefarious answer I'm missing?

            Sorry Curious Cat, no knowledgeable answers from me, just more questions.
            Superficial research suggests rigor mortis begins to set in about 4 hours after death, so by the time the crime scene photos were taken all of the body will have become stuck in position. It then takes another 12 hours or so to wear off.

            One thing I do notice from the first photo is that the top bed covers are bunched under/below her legs but the bottom sheets and pillow remain in place underneath her. To me it looks like she had been in bed with the covers over her at some point that night. She either got out of bed - pushing the covers to the bottom half of the bed - and the killer then pushed her back down onto the bed to kill her or she was in bed when she was killed and the killer uncovered her to carry out the other mutilations. She wasn't just on the bed when she was killed, it looks like she had actually gone to bed.

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            • #21
              TheTypeWriter

              I think it would have been better to have had that close up image of Mary Kelly's face linked so it opened in another window rather than embedded in your post. Or at least a bigger gap to indicate what was coming. Scrolling by that earlier without warning was a bit much.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

                Same here? Where is her mouth for example? Which way is here face pointing even? Grim I know but as much as I look I just cant make anything out.

                Tristan
                Yeah, I've never been able to make out MJK's features and that enlarged photo hasn't helped. Just looks like one pulpy mess.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                  A reporter in the Pall Mall Gazette said that she looked like the horrific exhibition models of the medical cliniques, so in all probability not one but both eyes were cleary visible and open. And yes, it is haunting.
                  Yeah but that could've been sensationalism. Although Walter Dew did say she had a "look of terror" on her face.

                  It's possible the police had closed her eyes before the photo was taken?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                    Yeah but that could've been sensationalism. Although Walter Dew did say she had a "look of terror" on her face.

                    It's possible the police had closed her eyes before the photo was taken?
                    Since I cannot think of any explanation why it would NOT be possible, I must admit that it probably is possible. But I do not think they did, to be fair. One problem with the whole matter is that the pic is black and white - if it was a colour picture (God forbid...), I beleive we may have seen the eyes quite clearly.

                    The Pall Mall Gazette reporter, as far as I can remember, made his comment after having seen Kelly in the morgue, not in situ in Dorset Street. That seems to point to her eyes having been left open all the time.

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                    • #25
                      The enlargement and reconstruction are not mine.

                      Just re posting for more recent members.

                      Um .... the "pillow" might have been replaced. Refer post mortem.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • #26
                        Hi Fisherman,

                        The jury visited the mortuary, Shoreditch Church.

                        PMG, 12th November 1888—

                        "Only her face was visible: the hideous and disembowled trunk was concealed by the dirty grey cloth, which had probably served to cover many a corpse. The face resembled one of those horrible wax anatomical specimens which may be seen in surgical shops. The eyes were the only vestiges of humanity; the rest was so scored and slashed that it was impossible to say where the flesh began and the cuts ended. And yet it was by no means a horrible sight. I have seen bodies in the Paris Morgue which looked far more repulsive."

                        The jury next moved on to Room 13 Millers Court, and then back to Shoreditch Town Hall.

                        Stay safe.

                        Simon
                        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                          One problem with the whole matter is that the pic is black and white - if it was a colour picture (God forbid...), I beleive we may have seen the eyes quite clearly.
                          I have a red version that seems clearer as well as an artist's sketch but I don't get how to upload them

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by E.J.H. View Post
                            I have a red version that seems clearer as well as an artist's sketch but I don't get how to upload them
                            I was more thinking along the impossible - that we could see Kelly in an authentic colour photo. Versions coloured in retrospect and artistīs renderings of the motive are no true versions, Iīm afraid. And of course there were no colour photos back then, but one can wish, canīt one?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                              Hi Fisherman,

                              The jury visited the mortuary, Shoreditch Church.

                              PMG, 12th November 1888—

                              "Only her face was visible: the hideous and disembowled trunk was concealed by the dirty grey cloth, which had probably served to cover many a corpse. The face resembled one of those horrible wax anatomical specimens which may be seen in surgical shops. The eyes were the only vestiges of humanity; the rest was so scored and slashed that it was impossible to say where the flesh began and the cuts ended. And yet it was by no means a horrible sight. I have seen bodies in the Paris Morgue which looked far more repulsive."

                              The jury next moved on to Room 13 Millers Court, and then back to Shoreditch Town Hall.

                              Stay safe.

                              Simon
                              Yup, Simon: "the eyes were the only vestiges of humanity". It seems obvious that they were there and open in that hideous mess the killer had produced. Which brings us to the question how they stayed untouched as the lawnmower moved over her face. I know Gareth Williams suggested that the eyes were set in cavities, and so they stayed unharmed for that reason. But if the killer was really intent on destroying Kellyīs face, I, d say that is not a very likely thing at all. And therefore, the conclusion must - oddly enough - be that the killer had no such intention.

                              Which is what I have been saying for the longest time now.
                              Last edited by Fisherman; 07-29-2020, 04:03 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
                                TheTypeWriter

                                I think it would have been better to have had that close up image of Mary Kelly's face linked so it opened in another window rather than embedded in your post. Or at least a bigger gap to indicate what was coming. Scrolling by that earlier without warning was a bit much.
                                My apologies about that, I'm still trying to figure out how to post things and where. I'm sorry if it startled you, I should have given warning. I've tried to delete it now but can't find an option to do so.
                                Last edited by TheTypeWriter; 07-29-2020, 11:44 PM.

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