Is that MJK's leg bone in the crime scene photo?

[Joshua Rogan]

That was my point. The heart wasnt discovered missing until the postmortem, which was when they were re-sieving. I agree with the assumption its "hair and eyes" myself.

I'm not sure if you're saying the two events occurred at the same time, but for clarity; the PM was in the AM, the ashes were then searched in the PM. Significantly, the search was led by the medical men accompanied by the police, not the other way around.

[Michael W Richards]

The post-mortem took place first thing on Saturday morning, immediately before the re-examination of the ashes. Here is the paragraph preceding the previously posted Sun report;

"THE POST-MORTEM.
Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, Dr. Gordon Brown, City Surgeon, and Dr. Phillips held a post-mortem on the body this morning. The ears are cut off, but are not missing.
The opinion is entertained by some of the Scotland-yard officers that the missing organ has been burnt in the fireplace in the murdered woman's room."

It doesn't seem like a leap of faith to me. Of course, they wouldn't ignore any other evidence in the fire if they came across it, but it seems obvious that the re-examination was prompted by the missing body parts.

Incidentally, the ears being cut off would, in my opinion, make it much more likely that Barnett identified her by her hair and eyes, rather than ears and eyes. Papers are about evenly split between the two. Although a couple report "ear" singular.

That was my point. The heart wasnt discovered missing until the postmortem, which was when they were re-sieving. I agree with the assumption its "hair and eyes" myself.

[Joshua Rogan]

Its clear that they mention biologic material Josh, its a leap of faith to suggest thats all they thought they would find. The heart was discussed because apparently it doesnt burn well, though... did they know Mary had lost her heart early on Friday? Or only after Bonds postmortem?

Again, just peeking down a rabbit hole.

The post-mortem took place first thing on Saturday morning, immediately before the re-examination of the ashes. Here is the paragraph preceding the previously posted Sun report;

"THE POST-MORTEM.
Dr. Bond, of Westminster Hospital, Dr. Gordon Brown, City Surgeon, and Dr. Phillips held a post-mortem on the body this morning. The ears are cut off, but are not missing.
The opinion is entertained by some of the Scotland-yard officers that the missing organ has been burnt in the fireplace in the murdered woman's room."

It doesn't seem like a leap of faith to me. Of course, they wouldn't ignore any other evidence in the fire if they came across it, but it seems obvious that the re-examination was prompted by the missing body parts.

Incidentally, the ears being cut off would, in my opinion, make it much more likely that Barnett identified her by her hair and eyes, rather than ears and eyes. Papers are about evenly split between the two. Although a couple report "ear" singular.

[The Rookie Detective]

Here is an excerpt from the Sun 10 Nov, reporting the proposed re-examination of the ashes;

"There is a mass of ash and rubbish under the grate, among which are portions of a coat and hat; and the police intend
EXAMINING THE ASHES
with the assistance of Dr. Phillips and Dr. Bond, for the presence of any fatty matter, or any trace of burnt flesh. The whole of the rubbish, in fact, will be carefully sifted and scrutinised, because if the burnt coat should happen to be part of the murderer's clothing a clue of some sort, meagre enough, perhaps, but better than nothing at all, would be supplied"

This is also reported after the fact by other papers. It's clear that they suspected a portion of the body may have been burnt in the fire, and were searching for traces of that. I'm not sure how much use two doctors would be in identifying fragments of stationery.

my personal theory is that the killer weather knew or was surprised to discover that Kelly was pregnant.

Which may explain why she suffered worse than any of the other victims.

not because the killer had more time, but because there was something extra, something specific and personal which made him obliterate her entirely.

the victims had their reproductive organs attacked because the killer had a hatred for those who abused their own bodies by flaunting them to anyone who’d pay for it.

he had no intention of having sex with them, he wasn’t sexually motivated. They disgusted him and he wanted to show and expose them for what they were.

if the killer disposed of anything in the fire, it’s most likely that he incinerated her heart, or her unborn foetus.

complete conjecture of course but there’s a reason why he took her heart, face and decimated her reproductive organs.

and seeing that Kelly was considerably younger than previous victims, the child bearing angle is more likely. It’s my belief that she was pregnant and that this was the main reason why he went full on beserker mode on her.


despite being a methodical psychopath, the killer must have lost control considering the sheer extent of wounds inflicted. Quite how e managed such frenzy in relative silence is a mystery.

There must have been a moment when he stopped to catch a breath, take a beat and think... “okay I’m done” - at some point the voices in his head just have told him to stop and bring him back to his senses.

and that’s when he tried to destroy any incriminating evidence in the fire.


Complete speculation but certainly has some elements of truth in the somewhere

TRD

[Michael W Richards]

Here is an excerpt from the Sun 10 Nov, reporting the proposed re-examination of the ashes;

"There is a mass of ash and rubbish under the grate, among which are portions of a coat and hat; and the police intend
EXAMINING THE ASHES
with the assistance of Dr. Phillips and Dr. Bond, for the presence of any fatty matter, or any trace of burnt flesh. The whole of the rubbish, in fact, will be carefully sifted and scrutinised, because if the burnt coat should happen to be part of the murderer's clothing a clue of some sort, meagre enough, perhaps, but better than nothing at all, would be supplied"

This is also reported after the fact by other papers. It's clear that they suspected a portion of the body may have been burnt in the fire, and were searching for traces of that. I'm not sure how much use two doctors would be in identifying fragments of stationery.

Its clear that they mention biologic material Josh, its a leap of faith to suggest thats all they thought they would find. The heart was discussed because apparently it doesnt burn well, though... did they know Mary had lost her heart early on Friday? Or only after Bonds postmortem?

Again, just peeking down a rabbit hole.

[Joshua Rogan]

Just an add on to that comment....I find the fact that Abberline and his posse went back into that room Saturday morning to re-sieve the ashes interesting, maybe they felt more minute fragments might still be recognizable and were missed.

Ive wondered about what kinds of fragments might still be present and recognizable in minute pieces. Letters might be one, or something with a serial number or insignia, like a stamp.

It would be interesting if a stamp fragment could be linked with the Post Office Robbery, which could connect those 2 murders in some way. Which would make Kates aliases more interesting too.

Here is an excerpt from the Sun 10 Nov, reporting the proposed re-examination of the ashes;

"There is a mass of ash and rubbish under the grate, among which are portions of a coat and hat; and the police intend
EXAMINING THE ASHES
with the assistance of Dr. Phillips and Dr. Bond, for the presence of any fatty matter, or any trace of burnt flesh. The whole of the rubbish, in fact, will be carefully sifted and scrutinised, because if the burnt coat should happen to be part of the murderer's clothing a clue of some sort, meagre enough, perhaps, but better than nothing at all, would be supplied"

This is also reported after the fact by other papers. It's clear that they suspected a portion of the body may have been burnt in the fire, and were searching for traces of that. I'm not sure how much use two doctors would be in identifying fragments of stationery.

[Michael W Richards]

So essentially the killer used the fire to destroy personal evidence/letters belonging to MJK?

it would explain why no personal letters were found.

TRD

Im just thinking out loud...this isnt a formalized idea really, but Ive wondered if the reurn to sieve the ashes meant that they believed something minute could still be identified, and what if Mary had any stamps that were from that Post Office Robbery the same night as the so-called Double Event? Something minute but traceable. If that is possible, then perhaps a link does exist from one murder to the next...if the murderer in both cases was the same man or men. It might explain those very coincidental aliases Kate used. Wouldnt it be interesting if Kate was leaving a clue to who might know what happened to her should she go missing or be found dead. Find Mary Kelly...she has evidence on the Mitre Square murderer. If the Post Office Robbery was in anyway connected to Kates murderer of course. Just peeking down various rabbit holes.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just an add on to that comment....I find the fact that Abberline and his posse went back into that room Saturday morning to re-sieve the ashes interesting, maybe they felt more minute fragments might still be recognizable and were missed.

Ive wondered about what kinds of fragments might still be present and recognizable in minute pieces. Letters might be one, or something with a serial number or insignia, like a stamp.

It would be interesting if a stamp fragment could be linked with the Post Office Robbery, which could connect those 2 murders in some way. Which would make Kates aliases more interesting too.

So essentially the killer used the fire to destroy personal evidence/letters belonging to MJK?

it would explain why no personal letters were found.

TRD

[Michael W Richards]

In fact Maria Harvey left DIRTY clothes with Mary Kelly that very night!

No doubt burnt to ashes later.

Just an add on to that comment....I find the fact that Abberline and his posse went back into that room Saturday morning to re-sieve the ashes interesting, maybe they felt more minute fragments might still be recognizable and were missed.

Ive wondered about what kinds of fragments might still be present and recognizable in minute pieces. Letters might be one, or something with a serial number or insignia, like a stamp.

It would be interesting if a stamp fragment could be linked with the Post Office Robbery, which could connect those 2 murders in some way. Which would make Kates aliases more interesting too.

[caz]

Acid now? Not his knock out tonic?

Do the bottles still represent the number of victims? The bottles as payment idea goes out the window if it was acid.

How do you safely carry acid in a used ginger beer bottle without corroding yourself? Cork?

I'll stick with the fairly outlandish 'knife and hair' / poorly reproduced N'th generation photo for now. That and Dr Bond.

But, TRD, if you think you're on to something, it's up to you to put forward a good case for it and give us something to think about. Maybe there is more to these bottles than meets the eye.

Keep up, Al. Before Lechmere was a carman, he was a carboy.

[Michael W Richards]

Well that really explains the clothing remnants that Abberline examined.

That I didnt mention the items retrieved in a partially burned condition doesnt mean they were not included in my reference to the clothing in the room. They were almost certainly tossed on a dying fire to gain some short term light.

I believe that the pilot jacket wasnt described as being soiled or dirty, so perhaps they accomplished less than they projected for. Additionally I dont recall a reference saying the clothing was found unwashed...maybe damp.

[Losmandris]

Mmmm. Not convinced I am afraid. Interesting theory though.

Tristan

[DJA]

I simply cant imagine that the doctors carrying out the postmortem would not have been able to see if either acid or boiling water would have been poured over her face. Seems a little too outlandish to me. I suppose without clarity in the photograph it is easy to conjecture. As richardh pointed out earlier the picture we are now seeing is a copy of a copy of a copy, so a lot of the finer detail has been lost. I think having a high res scan of the original would likely change our perspectives/theories entirely. Though the chances of that ever happening are remote at best.

Tristan

Try actually reading the words of the doctors carrying out the postmortem and having a really good look at Richard's excellent high definition blow up!

Having a read of the thread might be handy as well.

[Losmandris]

ifnit isn’t her hair then the cracking could have been caused by acid being poured onto her face.

I don’t buy the “boiling water” theory as the killer would have needed to use the water source situated OUTSIDE her room.

I believe the killer brought acid via the ginger beer bottle and disintegrated her face. Acid would have dried up her skin by melting through and absorbing all the moisture and thus caused the cracking effect.

the killer has more of a connection with Ginger Beer than we realise.

TRD

I simply cant imagine that the doctors carrying out the postmortem would not have been able to see if either acid or boiling water would have been poured over her face. Seems a little too outlandish to me. I suppose without clarity in the photograph it is easy to conjecture. As richardh pointed out earlier the picture we are now seeing is a copy of a copy of a copy, so a lot of the finer detail has been lost. I think having a high res scan of the original would likely change our perspectives/theories entirely. Though the chances of that ever happening are remote at best.

Tristan

[Losmandris]

It's Modelo and 1800 and Los Tucanes

I'll outline the flap out when I get a chance.

I would be interested to see this. As previously mentioned I has struggled to make head nor tale of her face. I think I can identify her right eye but cant be 100% sure?

Tristan