Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[etenguy]

Apologies if this is off topic. I've recently downloaded Who Killed Little Johnny Gill, by Kathryn McMaster. Got loads to read, so not sure when I'll get round to it. Has anybody read this book? Can you recommend it?

Hi John G. I have read the first few pages, but because it is fictionalised I gave up on it. Maybe when you have read it you can advise if I was premature to give up so easily.

[Errata]

Hi John G. I have read the first few pages, but because it is fictionalised I gave up on it. Maybe when you have read it you can advise if I was premature to give up so easily.

I was really angry at History for about a year after I realized that historical fiction was not history. Completely boycotted the subject. Probably why my American history is so rusty.

[Scott Nelson]

I am 99% convinced Johnny Gill was murdered by Walter Lewis Turner.

But was Johnny Gill a Ripper victim?

[jerryd]

But was Johnny Gill a Ripper victim?

Hi Scott.

Not in my mind. Unless somebody can connect Turner with Whitechapel.

[Joshua Rogan]

Not in my mind. Unless somebody can connect Turner with Whitechapel.

was he any relation to Martha Turner?

[Sam Flynn]

For those that were wondering, the data pattern I saw is below (and its so simple I'm sure others have noticed it before):

The murders of the canonical five were all at weekends but followed the pattern
Friday, Saturday, Sunday (double event), Friday

In addition the time between each murder was
1 week, 3 weeks (double event), 5 weeks then followed by the next day in the above day sequence.

So I looked at 7 weeks and the next day in the sequence and that was the date Johnny Gill's body was found (I can't yet find an actual time of death).

A week is a pretty blunt instrument, with a lot of margin for error. If we choose days as a unit of measurement then, apart from a general increase in the gap between murders, there's no discernible pattern.

Nichols to Chapman: 7 days
Chapman to Double: 23 days
Double to Mary Kelly: 40 days
Kelly to Johnny Gill: 48 days (taking 27th Dec as the date of his disappearance)

Edit: Dividing the days by 7, the pattern is less clear-cut than 1, 3, 5, 7 weeks. It's 1, 3, 6, 7 "weeks", when rounded to the nearest integer (1.0, 3.3, 5.7, 6.9 to one decimal place).

[Harry D]

Not sure what reason there is to consider Johnny Gill. It was a murder in the opposite end of the country with a different victimology. If the Whitechapel murderer had a thing for kids, I'm sure there were dozens of street-urchins he could've preyed on in the East End.

[etenguy]

A week is a pretty blunt instrument, with a lot of margin for error. If we choose days as a unit of measurement then, apart from a general increase in the gap between murders, there's no discernible pattern.

Nichols to Chapman: 7 days
Chapman to Double: 23 days
Double to Mary Kelly: 40 days
Kelly to Johnny Gill: 48 days (taking 27th Dec as the date of his disappearance)

Edit: Dividing the days by 7, the pattern is less clear-cut than 1, 3, 5, 7 weeks. It's 1, 3, 6, 7 "weeks", when rounded to the nearest integer (1.0, 3.3, 5.7, 6.9 to one decimal place).

Hi Sam

And yet, nevertheless, when we use weeks the pattern is there. Odd number of weeks in increasing sequence followed by the next day in the fri, sat, sun, fri weekend pattern. It may simply be coincidence, or finding an odd pattern amongst a host of data, but it strikes me as significant.

There is no accepted ripper victim at 7 weeks and the next sequence day - though that is the day Johnny Gill's body was found. From what I can gather the body was placed where it was found early on the 29th - 2 days after he went missing and fitting the sequence exactly. When he died, I do not know, I am struggling to find details, If it was earlier, say 27th, did the murderer deliberately hold back disposing of the body until that day, or was he killed that morning - I cannot say. I was hoping others here might have more information about the murder, but other than the article posted by dr strange, no-one seems to have details. If I can find those details and it confirms or eliminates the killing as a potential ripper victim, it would either extend the pattern or we are left with limited data which appears to show a pattern but based on too little data to be certain it isn't just coincidence.

[etenguy]

Not sure what reason there is to consider Johnny Gill. It was a murder in the opposite end of the country with a different victimology. If the Whitechapel murderer had a thing for kids, I'm sure there were dozens of street-urchins he could've preyed on in the East End.

Hey Harry

The mutilations were sufficiently similar to ripper victims that the locals called Dr Philips to check whether he thought it was a murder by the same hand. He did not think it was the same murderer but that is one opinion. Of course, a young boy may lead the murderer to a different but linked approach than with adult women (if it was the same killer).

Why Bradford would have a ripper murder is open to speculation, but it could be the murderer's family home perhaps and he moved back.

The change in victimology (age and gender) is odd, but other serial killers have also included children in their murder spree, eg Dennis Nilsen, though it was not such a change in his victimology as this one.

The timing of the murder fits exactly with the pattern found in the timings of the C5 murders (see above post), but may be just coincidence.

Chances are the murders are not linked - but it would be good to establish one way or the other. It is not so implausible that they might be.

[Errata]

Hey Harry

The mutilations were sufficiently similar to ripper victims that the locals called Dr Philips to check whether he thought it was a murder by the same hand. He did not think it was the same murderer but that is one opinion. Of course, a young boy may lead the murderer to a different but linked approach than with adult women (if it was the same killer).

Why Bradford would have a ripper murder is open to speculation, but it could be the murderer's family home perhaps and he moved back.

The change in victimology (age and gender) is odd, but other serial killers have also included children in their murder spree, eg Dennis Nilsen, though it was not such a change in his victimology as this one.

The timing of the murder fits exactly with the pattern found in the timings of the C5 murders (see above post), but may be just coincidence.

Chances are the murders are not linked - but it would be good to establish one way or the other. It is not so implausible that they might be.

I don’t suppose Philips gave an opinion on the kind of saw used?

[Joshua Rogan]

I don’t suppose Philips gave an opinion on the kind of saw used?

Or even whether a saw was used at all?

[etenguy]

Or even whether a saw was used at all?

I have not seen a report prepared by Philips, don't know if he wrote one even, but he did reach a conclusion that was shared.

[Errata]

Or even whether a saw was used at all?

Yeah assuming all the disarticulation was done at the ball and socket joints, a knife can deal with that relatively (very relatively) quickly. Knees and elbows are a little more finicky, definitely quicker to saw through. And Johnny Gill was found soon enough after going missing that speed was a factor in his dismemberment.

[Fisherman]

Yeah assuming all the disarticulation was done at the ball and socket joints, a knife can deal with that relatively (very relatively) quickly. Knees and elbows are a little more finicky, definitely quicker to saw through. And Johnny Gill was found soon enough after going missing that speed was a factor in his dismemberment.

Ah, that is what is said in the Lancet too: the elbow and knee joints are more fiddly to disarticulate than the joints at the hips and shoulders. So you can confirm this, it would seem? Can you explain why, perhaps?

[Errata]

Ah, that is what is said in the Lancet too: the elbow and knee joints are more fiddly to disarticulate than the joints at the hips and shoulders. So you can confirm this, it would seem? Can you explain why, perhaps?

Hips and shoulders are sort of strapped on, the strongest (toughest) ligaments are on the outside. Once you get through those you can sort of crack the joint open and cut the rest. Elbows are sort of slotted, and knees have some of the strongest internal and external ligaments on the body. Once you cut the external “sleeve” there’s still a lot of tough stuff to go through. And It’s all small and you can’t see it and the ligaments might have tightened up.

Not it that I have personal experience with this, but I’ve seen animals rendered, and it’s much the same.