Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[Errata]

Just to note I don't believe any of the Torso murders were Jack nor do I think Jack was particularly old. Although a bad back doesn't necessarily have to mean the killer was that old. Also I'm 50/50 as to whether Stride was a Ripper victim.

Cheers John

True. But your standard serial killer, if such a thing exists, is a 25-35 year old white male. A little early for a bad back, or so they told me when spine fell apart at age 32. And again at 36. And again two months ago .(who's complaining? I'm not complaining) 45 today is the new 35. or even 25 depending on who you ask. But a lower class Victorian male was generally beat to hell by his life by the time he was 45. Not an invalid by any stretch, but I'd bet they occasionally got stuck trying to bend over or kneel or some such. Especially as I'm learning now if the cervical spine was problematic. I could do the Ripper murders with my back messed up this way, but I'd have to change hands a lot. It would affect my performance. Neither here nor there.

Personally I don't have a problem with an older Ripper. It might explain some hiccups. I don't think the Torso Killer was Jack. I think the Thames murder of 73 was the absolute pinnacle of human destruction. We're talking skinned faces being sewn to a scalped head human destruction. It makes Kelly look like he wasn't even trying. Theres no way that body was just a dump. So if a man is capable of that detail, and care, and apparently has a place to work without getting caught... and 15 years later, while apparently still dropping bodies, he just sucks at it? It's like Da Vinci doodling stick figures. I don't see how there is that much of a degradation while still successfully killing. I also don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. She was killed essentially standing, and thats a very different thing. Jack kills on the ground for a reason. Probably a kind of dumb reason, but he does. It's definitely part of his ritual. Why change it after an objectively very successful kill?And women died all the time. Still do.They can't all be the Ripper.

Also I'm pretty sure some of those torsos and perhaps even Johnny Gill were put through automatic saws. If the Ripper had one of those, I think he would have used it.

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Interesting post. I'd not considered the Torso Killer using a circular saw but it's eminently possible. Also I agree with your point that if Jack had a circular saw he would have used one. I think your post also highlights that the Torso Killer was not also Jack.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Interesting post. I'd not considered the Torso Killer using a circular saw but it's eminently possible. Also I agree with your point that if Jack had a circular saw he would have used one. I think your post also highlights that the Torso Killer was not also Jack.

Cheers John

I should have written automatic saw which is what I meant.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm pretty sure some of those torsos and perhaps even Johnny Gill were put through automatic saws. If the Ripper had one of those, I think he would have used it.

Did they have portable automatic saws in 1888?

[John Wheat]

Did they have portable automatic saws in 1888?

No they weren't invented until 1929.

[jerryd]

Sorry to be a bit off topic regarding Johnny Gill. But, since sawing and the torsos was mentioned I thought I would post this. The picture below is of John Chappel's saw mill located in Pimlico on the River Thames. The Whitehall torso "arm" was found on the bank of the river near this mill. I remember Debs noticing from this piece [posted by me on JTRforums years back] that Chappel also made sash windows. Sash cord was used to tie up some of the torso parts. I would think these timber mills would also ship the cut up boards to new construction sites, such as the New Scotland Yard site.

Regarding portable saws. The Whitehall torso was found in a construction site full of carpenter's. They kept their tools locked up on the site. Hand saws are used by carpenters.

[Errata]

I was thinking treadle saws, which were a thing. Like a pedal powered scroll saw. Not portable I wouldn’t think,I would think. Especially if he didn’t have a horse and wagon. But private as opposed to industrial.

my grandfather had a treadle saw table from “the old country”. The stray Amish spring of the family tree. Just the table and wheels though. No saw. Still an impressively imposing table.

[Errata]

he had a this:



not necessarily the correct era, but I've seen the Victorian models. Like a cross between a Inquisitional rack and a dental tool of the damned. Fun toy though.

[Michael W Richards]

I think one thing that we can say about this murder is that its highly unlikely that the man who made Torsos in London committed this crime. The boy was terribly mutilated, but left with all his parts in that barrel.

[jerryd]

I think one thing that we can say about this murder is that its highly unlikely that the man who made Torsos in London committed this crime. The boy was terribly mutilated, but left with all his parts in that barrel.

I agree Michael. I am 99% convinced Johnny Gill was murdered by Walter Lewis Turner.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry to be a bit off topic regarding Johnny Gill. But, since sawing and the torsos was mentioned I thought I would post this. The picture below is of John Chappel's saw mill located in Pimlico on the River Thames. The Whitehall torso "arm" was found on the bank of the river near this mill. I remember Debs noticing from this piece [posted by me on JTRforums years back] that Chappel also made sash windows. Sash cord was used to tie up some of the torso parts. I would think these timber mills would also ship the cut up boards to new construction sites, such as the New Scotland Yard site.

Regarding portable saws. The Whitehall torso was found in a construction site full of carpenter's. They kept their tools locked up on the site. Hand saws are used by carpenters.

brilliant stuff as usual Jerry! Did wildbore or any other folks you've looked into have ties to this saw mill?

[Michael W Richards]

I agree Michael. I am 99% convinced Johnny Gill was murdered by Walter Lewis Turner.

A name Im unfamiliar with jerry. A quick Google gave me details on his murder conviction and his execution date for the murder of that 6 year old girl, I found it interesting that he claimed he never killed her but had a quarryman chum named "Jack" ask him to dispose of the trunk. The Jack? Just kiddin.

[Abby Normal]

A name Im unfamiliar with jerry. A quick Google gave me details on his murder conviction and his execution date for the murder of that 6 year old girl, I found it interesting that he claimed he never killed her but had a quarryman chum named "Jack" ask him to dispose of the trunk. The Jack? Just kiddin.

yup either him or the milkman. not the torso/ripper

[jerryd]

brilliant stuff as usual Jerry! Did wildbore or any other folks you've looked into have ties to this saw mill?

Abby,

Sorry for the late response. I guess I overlooked your post.

As far as I'm aware, Wildbore didn't have ties to J.T. Chappell. Chappell's businesses are interesting though, as he owned barges (as can be seen from the picture I posted) that traveled the river probably delivering or picking up lumber and brick. He owned a brick manufacturing yard (London and County Brick Co.) down river. In fact, 16 miles east of Rainham in Benfleet.

[John G]

Apologies if this is off topic. I've recently downloaded Who Killed Little Johnny Gill, by Kathryn McMaster. Got loads to read, so not sure when I'll get round to it. Has anybody read this book? Can you recommend it?