Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[Joshua Rogan]

Hello etenguy,

No offence but do you have a more legit source? Factual fiction obviously takes creative liberties and the author may have inserted Dr Phillips into the story to jazz it up.

Se post #112

[etenguy]

Hello etenguy,

No offence but do you have a more legit source? Factual fiction obviously takes creative liberties and the author may have inserted Dr Phillips into the story to jazz it up.

Hi Harry

Although the article is about the factional book, I believe the quote is not from the book. However, there are quite a few references, you can find a quote in the article posted by Dr Strange (#26) earlier in this thread (useful article and has a lot of useful information), but I see Joshua Rogan has also posted a quote at #112 from the Times.

[Joshua Rogan]

you can find a quote in the article posted by Dr Strange (#26) earlier in this thread (useful article and has a lot of useful Information)

Crikey, can you read that article? I'll have to dig out my magnifying glass and give it another try.

[etenguy]

Crikey, can you read that article? I'll have to dig out my magnifying glass and give it another try.

It took me a while, but I can make most of it out. I did not find a time of death, the nearest I could find was the boy had been killed some time before being found. The mutilations to the body were awful and included a cut from the chin to below the waist and the intestines had been placed over the boys shoulder. Organs had been removed but all were recovered, one lung being the last. It may have been a copy cat to make it seem like the ripper, or it may have been the ripper. The police believe it was not the ripper but their reason (quoted in the article) is far from convincing (that the murderer knew the area and therefore was not the ripper). However, Phillips also said it was not the ripper, but I have not found any quote about the reasons he thought that.

So far, it seems unlikely it was the ripper - the only itch at the back of my head is how the murder fits the timing pattern for C5 murders precisely - just a coincidence - maybe the whole timing pattern is coincidence. But having found a pattern and then used it to predict when the next murder would be due and then finding a potential ripper victim at that time, I am struggling to simply dismiss the possibility without at least exploring it in depth.

[etenguy]

A useful description I found posted by Ausgirl in a thread entitled Was John Gill a Copy-Cat Murder

Yep. Here's a description I wrote recently for a Reddit article:

John’s body was left face-down. It was completely drained of blood, and horribly mutilated. One ear was cut off, and seemed to be missing. Both the boy’s legs had been hacked off at the thighs (later reports would say this seemed expertly done, but it probably wasn’t), and were placed beside the upper part of his torso. Two stab wounds to the chest from a large knife were deemed sufficient to have “killed an elephant” and thought to be the immediate cause of death. There was no injury at all to his face, and his throat had not been cut across, but a deep vertical slash began at the top of the throat, continuing down to the lower abdomen. John’s heart had been cut out and then tucked neatly under his chin. Sections of intestine were also removed, and these had been draped about his head and shoulders. The abdominal cavity was so clean that it appeared to have been washed out. Inside it, among other things (Including John’s boots), were the missing ear and a severed lung. There was also severe genital mutilation; the entire scrotum had been cut away and like several other organs was nowhere to be found.

There seems to be no clear estimated time of death, but it was thought he’d died less than 24 hours before the body was discovered.
This is from the police report:

There were two stabs in the chest, which included the area filled by the heart, but the stabs did not touch it. All the blood-vessels were cut through, but the vessel which had been stabbed in two was the aorta. There were certain parts of the body missing – a part of the iliac bone, part of the pubic bone on the left hand side, and the fleshy attachments. The knife shown to him by the police would glide into the wound on the chest, and any other knife of the same size would do the same. In his opinion the boy was not murdered where the remains were found. Death would practically be instantaneous, because of the division of the larger blood vessels of the chest. He was of the opinion that the mutilations took place after death. The body was bloodless; it had the appearance of having been washed externally and internally, and then allowed to dry or drain. The mutations could not have been effected with one instrument; there must have been used a sharp strong knife, well tempered, and perhaps with a point; force would be required to sever some of the parts, such as could be applied by a mallet or hammer being struck at the back of the knife blade. There was no blood on the boy’s clothing, except that his collar was saturated with blood. A peculiarity about the collar was the blood seemed to be much more moist than the body. On the lining of the cap was coagulated blood.

---

There's conflicting reports about whether one or both ears were severed, and where his boots were found. Best as I can tell from focussing on the earliest reports I could find, it was one ear and his boots were partly shoved into his abdominal cavity.

I don't think this was the Ripper, at all. The Ripper never washed a body... or wrapped it up or moved it.

I think this was pedophile, covering his tracks.

Last edited by Ausgirl; 04-22-2016, 04:45 PM

.

Ausgirl also pointed to a link to another thread entitled John Gill which she states is useful. Working my way through that thread (11 pages) for information too.

[etenguy]

I don't know how to link to posts in other threads, I hope reproducing them is not bad form, but I will put a full reference. A post I found on the John Gill thread by Archaic (post#25 on that thread) included the below

I looked back over my notes on this case, and the police viewed the murder of John Gill as possibly linked to the Whitechapel Murders because the boy was not only eviscerated, but also sexually mutilated.

Details seem to have been so awful they were hushed up, but the child's entire scrotum was excised. (I don't know if it was left with the corpse or not. Some of the excised pieces, such as the child's right ear, were discovered shoved into his chest cavity.)

Because of the bizarre nature of this crime, the London Police sent their surgeon Dr. George Bagster Phillips up to Bradford to inspect the corpse. He concluded that the crimes were probably linked.

This is the first time I have seen it suggested that Phillips thought the crimes were linked.

Edit - Archaic later cites the source, A book about the Brontes, but this book did not make their source known, so we should probably treat it with scepticism.

[Abby Normal]

Oh god the muscle relaxers are killing me

what I meant to essentially express is that you can sort serial killers by any number of ways. Motive, weapons, sex, organization, height if you really wanted to. This is just another category to sort into. If you take every serial killer you know, and divide them into one of those three categories of body disposition, the killers in each column will share certain traits. And the idea is that those traits or as useful in identifying a serial killer as any other trait. Not my idea, by any means. But a good one I think in general. Though problematic for this usage.

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.

[Abby Normal]

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.
body hider sub category post mortem: body dumped and hidden, initial post mortem interest. ex. LISK

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.

edited to imclude body hider sub category

[Errata]

interesting. ans yes there could be some use in this type of analysis. but i think it is problematic when trying to decribe torsoman as i think that there is some overlap between MO and sig in the way he disposed the body. as in i think he did need to dismember to help get the body out of his chop shop but i think he also enjoyed cutting up the body. and i think he also enjoyed the way he left the parts in odd and shocking places.

imho i think these categories are too broad and not specific enough. would break down the categories as follows:

body abandoners: as you say, no interest in body once they are done. and no moving, displaying. body left were killed.ex. zodiac, son of sam

body dumpers: body moved when done. no post mortem interest. dumped to just get rid of. victim killed somewhere else. moved to distance from killers identity. no overt attempt to hide. ex. hillside stranglers

body stashers: body moved to come back to. post mortem interest. ex. bundy, green river

body hoarders: body kept close to killer. major post mortem interest. ex dahmer, gein

body hiders: body dumped and hidden. usually buried. max attempt to distance from killer and cover tracks. no post mortem interest. usually domestic murders. killer and victim known to each other.

body displayers: body displayed or staged in odd and shocking fasion. left where killed- ex. ripper, rollins
sub category: mover/ displayer . body moved but displayed, staged. ex. torsoman. william suff.
both major post mortem interest.

as most categories there could be overlap, obviously, depending on killers circs and escalation. ex. torsoripper.

I buy every bit of that. I think the broader categories were only in place because they were attempting only to describe the immediate behavior of the kills, not the longer view, nor the psychological needs. But either way we can see how important factors other than motive may be. And how looking at other descriptors can help sort out victims and methods.

[Aethelwulf]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

[Ms Diddles]

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

Hi Wulf,

I read a book a while ago about this strange case.

As far as I'm aware the only person in the frame was indeed the milkman who was found not guilty, to much celebration from the villagers IIRC.

If he really wasn't guilty, then it seems nobody had any idea whodunit.

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

This story may be erroneous, but it's kinda strange.

Did Bury have links with the Bradford area (or have I misremembered that!)?

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wulf,

I read a book a while ago about this strange case.

As far as I'm aware the only person in the frame was indeed the milkman who was found not guilty, to much celebration from the villagers IIRC.

If he really wasn't guilty, then it seems nobody had any idea whodunit.

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

This story may be erroneous, but it's kinda strange.

Did Bury have links with the Bradford area (or have I misremembered that!)?

Hey Dids yes that is what caught my eye, plus bury went missing for a number of days after Xmas 1888. I really don't know what his connection to west yorks was but he served time if Wakefield prison having spent some time as a vagrant on the streets of Dewsbury, which is 8 miles from Bradford. He is also on record as sleeping rough in stables. As it stands though bury resurfaced at 5.30am on the 28th dec and repeatedly hit his wife in the face. Unless the body was missed, the dates are a bit out. Body discoverd on 29th. Martin didn't give a statement to abberline until 14th Feb 89. Could he have been out with his dates?

Haven't heard about break in, booze and note before. What did the note say?

[Michael W Richards]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

"The unfortunate victim had been indescribably mutilated. Both legs were cut off close to the body. The abdomen was slightly open, and the intestines partly extracted. Both ears were cut off, and there were other shocking disfigurements. When found, the limbs were tied to the body…The braces which the deceased had worn were used to bind the limbs to the trunk. The clothes of the boy were then wrapped round the body, the jacket enveloping the parcel."

This seems far more like Torso Maker than Jack.

"Here in Bradford he takes away the life of an innocent lad, drains every drop of blood out of his body, and then commences the work of cutting it up, finishing his horrible performance by tying the parts together and depositing them in a dark corner a hundred yards from the house where the little boy had lived".

Not killed in public, not a working prostitute, not even a woman, far from Whitechapel, deposited the remains away from the actual kill site.....so no, not Jack, but a very evil person for sure. Maybe Torso guy, or someone he inspired.

[etenguy]

"The unfortunate victim had been indescribably mutilated. Both legs were cut off close to the body. The abdomen was slightly open, and the intestines partly extracted. Both ears were cut off, and there were other shocking disfigurements. When found, the limbs were tied to the body…The braces which the deceased had worn were used to bind the limbs to the trunk. The clothes of the boy were then wrapped round the body, the jacket enveloping the parcel."

This seems far more like Torso Maker than Jack.

"Here in Bradford he takes away the life of an innocent lad, drains every drop of blood out of his body, and then commences the work of cutting it up, finishing his horrible performance by tying the parts together and depositing them in a dark corner a hundred yards from the house where the little boy had lived".

Not killed in public, not a working prostitute, not even a woman, far from Whitechapel, deposited the remains away from the actual kill site.....so no, not Jack, but a very evil person for sure. Maybe Torso guy, or someone he inspired.

Hi Michael

You are probably correct, but Kelly was not killed in public, some serial killers also kill children sometimes - but you are correct that this would be the first time the kill site and discovered site would have been different if it was the ripper.

Since initially writing the OP, I have become more at ease with strange coincidences meaning nothing when exploring the ripper murders. Looking at the murder all coincidences aside, I still wonder whether the ripper murders inspired this atrocity.

[etenguy]

There's the weird thing about a local couple who lived around half a mile from where the body was found returning home on the morning that John Gill was last seen, to find that their house had been broken into, furniture and belongings in disarray, booze drunk and a note from "Jack The Ripper".

Hi Ms Diddles

Interesting post, especially the ripper connection. I wonder if this was true or a newspaper exaggeration.