Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[jerryd]

This case had passed my by until recently. It must be the most awful murder of 1888. Is there any consensus on who done it? Seems like the milky was in the frame but I'm not sure. There are certainly some ripper like aspects, the placement or organs, sexual mutilation, destruction or odd use of victims clothing. A very weird one and can't see poor Gill being killed in this way if it weren't for inspiration from the ripper.

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

[Aethelwulf]

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

Hi Jerry, yes i did see reference to that in some of the discussions, might have been on JTR Forums. I'm not sure how much info there was on that - was it a similar case i.e. removal and placement of organs, clothes shoved inside the abdomen etc. There is certainly something Kelly like about the Gill murder and probably a local man surely inspired by the ripper. Wasn't there also some sort of ripper scare with a child in Havant? Although I have a feeling another boy confessed to that perhaps.

Last thought on Gill if some want to see a ripper link. It wouldn't suprise me if the ripper had a difficult childhood and found family time (e.g. birthdays/Christmas) difficult and a time that he might lash out. Perhaps if he had an awful childhood he might have taken his rage out on a child at was is usually a happy family time of year. Although why he would need to go to West Yorkshire for that doesn't make sense. Hope Ms D has some extra info on the suppposed ripper note and break in.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think there really is a consensus on this. I, personally, think it was Walter Lewis Turner. The man who killed 5 year old Barbara Waterhouse in nearby Leeds in 1891. Turner had connections to Bradford, lived in nearby Shipley at one time and was very violent. The police at the time of his hanging felt he could have been the culprit.

hey jer
thanks! did waterhouse have similar mutilations to gill?

[Aethelwulf]

The Havant case: https://localhistories.org/jack-the-ripper-in-havant/

As the crow flies, Havant is ~65 miles SW of Whitechapel, on the outskirts of Portsmouth. A local boy was in the frame but found not guilty and the case remained unsloved.

[Aethelwulf]

The Havant case: https://localhistories.org/jack-the-ripper-in-havant/

As the crow flies, Havant is ~65 miles SW of Whitechapel, on the outskirts of Portsmouth. A local boy was in the frame but found not guilty and the case remained unsloved.

Apparently there was a letter sent to a magistrate a few days before the Searle murder with the message 'don't bother looking for me in london I am not there, yours jack the ripper- with a Portsmouth postmark. There also seems to have been some writing on a shutter and a suspicious fellow in a seal skin cap.

At nine o'clock the knife was discovered, about eight yards from the spot where the murder was committed, and where a large pool of blood indicated the nature of the crime. It is an ordinary buck-handle pocket knife. The small blade was closed, and was broken in two. The large blade was open, the weapon being so completely covered with blood that the finder could not touch it without being smeared. The general opinion at the outset was that this was the work of "Jack the Ripper," the letter recently published and the writing on the shutter in Hanover-street, Portsmouth, giving some colour to this suggestion. It seems, however, that the horrible deed was not committed by a skilful hand, four clumsy gashes having been inflicted. One man has been arrested on suspicion, some marks on his face and his general behaviour attracting attention. He wore a sealskin cap, and was dressed in a long coat, carrying with him a small bundle. He had dark whiskers and slight moustache. Sergeant Knapton made the arrest as the man was about to leave by train. The accused, who trembled violently and exhibited much emotion, would not speak a word.

[Aethelwulf]

One man has been arrested on suspicion, some marks on his face and his general behaviour attracting attention. He wore a sealskin cap, and was dressed in a long coat, carrying with him a small bundle. He had dark whiskers and slight moustache. Sergeant Knapton made the arrest as the man was about to leave by train. The accused, who trembled violently and exhibited much emotion, would not speak a word.[/I]

Shame we don't know any more about this bloke as he seems to have been released as the other boy was charged. Two things I wouldn't mind knowing: 1- if he was about to board a train, where was he going; 2-were they fresh scratches on his face, or say, 6 days old? It doesn't appeal to most but I believe it was the ripper that botched the attack on farmer, who scratched his face. How did he manage or explain his scratched appearance to those who knew him following the attack - perhaps he just circumvented that by leaving...

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles

Interesting post, especially the ripper connection. I wonder if this was true or a newspaper exaggeration.

Hi Eten,

It's a strange tale.

I wondered whether the couple were just making it up to seek attention, or indeed if could be an exaggeration by the press.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Jerry, yes i did see reference to that in some of the discussions, might have been on JTR Forums. I'm not sure how much info there was on that - was it a similar case i.e. removal and placement of organs, clothes shoved inside the abdomen etc. There is certainly something Kelly like about the Gill murder and probably a local man surely inspired by the ripper. Wasn't there also some sort of ripper scare with a child in Havant? Although I have a feeling another boy confessed to that perhaps.

Last thought on Gill if some want to see a ripper link. It wouldn't suprise me if the ripper had a difficult childhood and found family time (e.g. birthdays/Christmas) difficult and a time that he might lash out. Perhaps if he had an awful childhood he might have taken his rage out on a child at was is usually a happy family time of year. Although why he would need to go to West Yorkshire for that doesn't make sense. Hope Ms D has some extra info on the suppposed ripper note and break in.

Hi Wulf,

There's an outline of the story on this JtR Tour website.

https://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/generalnews/the-murder-of-john-gill/

Just scroll down to "A Remarkable Story".

The book which I read is called "Who Killed Little Johnny Gill" by Kathryn McMaster.

It's a fictionalised account of the case (which isn't always my bag), but to be fair the author does seem to remain faithful to the known facts and has clearly done her homework.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

You are probably correct, but Kelly was not killed in public, some serial killers also kill children sometimes - but you are correct that this would be the first time the kill site and discovered site would have been different if it was the ripper.

Since initially writing the OP, I have become more at ease with strange coincidences meaning nothing when exploring the ripper murders. Looking at the murder all coincidences aside, I still wonder whether the ripper murders inspired this atrocity.

Hi etenguy,

Im of the mindset that there is no need to presume madness as the primary motivation when looking at any of the Ripper murders, and that enables me to look for signs of other kinds of possible motivations present. Madness in actions taken do not necessarily equate to a madness as the primary motivator in my estimation. Take Kelly for example. Indoors, dressed for sleeping, almost taken apart, heart taken, flesh stripped from bone... these are not traditional Ripper murder elements. They are mad acts, to be sure, but is Madness the only choice for Motive?

Mary acknowledged to Julia that she was seeing another "Joe" while seeing Barnett, many believe that was Flemming. She was treated roughly by this other Joe. Do people do mad crazy things based on jealousy, love, anger, rage? Yep, they do. Is this perhaps a case of one of those issues? I dont know. But I do know that the removal of a heart may well relate to those kinds of issues. And Flemming is institutionalized a few years after these crimes. Just saying, True Madness, like what was seen with Annie Chapman, is very, very rare. These other things are not so rare. Maybe eliminate the horses before searching for Unicorns?

[etenguy]

Hi Eten,

It's a strange tale.

I wondered whether the couple were just making it up to seek attention, or indeed if could be an exaggeration by the press.

Hi Ms Diddles

I think it was likely made up, either by journalists or the couple themselves. What it does tell us though is that locals, at least, thought there was reason to believe this crime was possibly committed by the Whitechapel murderer. Coupled with Phillip's visit - it was clearly a serious line of enquiry - however, in the end Phillips said no and other suspects seem more likely.

[etenguy]

Hi etenguy,

Im of the mindset that there is no need to presume madness as the primary motivation when looking at any of the Ripper murders, and that enables me to look for signs of other kinds of possible motivations present. Madness in actions taken do not necessarily equate to a madness as the primary motivator in my estimation. Take Kelly for example. Indoors, dressed for sleeping, almost taken apart, heart taken, flesh stripped from bone... these are not traditional Ripper murder elements. They are mad acts, to be sure, but is Madness the only choice for Motive?

Mary acknowledged to Julia that she was seeing another "Joe" while seeing Barnett, many believe that was Flemming. She was treated roughly by this other Joe. Do people do mad crazy things based on jealousy, love, anger, rage? Yep, they do. Is this perhaps a case of one of those issues? I dont know. But I do know that the removal of a heart may well relate to those kinds of issues. And Flemming is institutionalized a few years after these crimes. Just saying, True Madness, like what was seen with Annie Chapman, is very, very rare. These other things are not so rare. Maybe eliminate the horses before searching for Unicorns?

Hi Michael

Quite possibly. Events around the MJK murder were a little peculiar - Maxwell - Lewis - burnt clothes - police behaviour -etc...

[Aethelwulf]

Who was this guy? Friday would have been 28th Dec, body found early 29th. Manningham is in Bradford.

[Ms Diddles]

Who was this guy? Friday would have been 28th Dec, body found early 29th. Manningham is in Bradford.

Intriguing, Wulf!

I have never seen that before.

[Aethelwulf]

Intriguing, Wulf!

I have never seen that before.

Yes, I suppose the key word is 'rumour'. Even if the ID was off, it sounds like someone was in Leman Street twice on suspicion.

These child murders may well be red herrings, but I wouldn't put any level of depravity beyond the man that killed the C5, especially Kelly. It could be a mistake to discount victims that don't fit the usual pattern. After all, the C5 is only a sample size of 5 - that isn't enough to categorically say which cases are irrelevant. Even with that Havant murder there are some points on note - two bladed knife, one short, one long; stabbed in the neck (tabram and wilson). Man in long dark coat, slight moustache carrying a bundle, odd behaviour, the ripper note and message on a shutter. One witness states that he saw the arrested man (later released) near the murder spot. How fast was a Victorian train - 30 mph - portsmouth would be a day trip from london.

[etenguy]

[FONT=Calibri]Yes, I suppose the key word is 'rumour'. Even if the ID was off, it sounds like someone was in Leman Street twice on suspicion.

It seems the Bradford police had more information than the London police - both the above was reported as well as

The police have received and traced to their origin letters which lead them to believe that Jack the Ripper is living in the vicinity of Drury Lane. They do not accept the theory that the Whitechapel fiend had anything to do with the murder of little John Gill, and seem confident that the clew upon which they are now working will result in the murderer's capture in London.

Do we know anything about these letters and the Drury Lane address?