Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[jerryd]

Sorry to be a bit off topic regarding Johnny Gill. But, since sawing and the torsos was mentioned I thought I would post this. The picture below is of John Chappel's saw mill located in Pimlico on the River Thames. The Whitehall torso "arm" was found on the bank of the river near this mill. I remember Debs noticing from this piece [posted by me on JTRforums years back] that Chappel also made sash windows. Sash cord was used to tie up some of the torso parts. I would think these timber mills would also ship the cut up boards to new construction sites, such as the New Scotland Yard site.

Regarding portable saws. The Whitehall torso was found in a construction site full of carpenter's. They kept their tools locked up on the site. Hand saws are used by carpenters.

[John Wheat]

Did they have portable automatic saws in 1888?

No they weren't invented until 1929.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm pretty sure some of those torsos and perhaps even Johnny Gill were put through automatic saws. If the Ripper had one of those, I think he would have used it.

Did they have portable automatic saws in 1888?

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Interesting post. I'd not considered the Torso Killer using a circular saw but it's eminently possible. Also I agree with your point that if Jack had a circular saw he would have used one. I think your post also highlights that the Torso Killer was not also Jack.

Cheers John

I should have written automatic saw which is what I meant.

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Interesting post. I'd not considered the Torso Killer using a circular saw but it's eminently possible. Also I agree with your point that if Jack had a circular saw he would have used one. I think your post also highlights that the Torso Killer was not also Jack.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Just to note I don't believe any of the Torso murders were Jack nor do I think Jack was particularly old. Although a bad back doesn't necessarily have to mean the killer was that old. Also I'm 50/50 as to whether Stride was a Ripper victim.

Cheers John

True. But your standard serial killer, if such a thing exists, is a 25-35 year old white male. A little early for a bad back, or so they told me when spine fell apart at age 32. And again at 36. And again two months ago .(who's complaining? I'm not complaining) 45 today is the new 35. or even 25 depending on who you ask. But a lower class Victorian male was generally beat to hell by his life by the time he was 45. Not an invalid by any stretch, but I'd bet they occasionally got stuck trying to bend over or kneel or some such. Especially as I'm learning now if the cervical spine was problematic. I could do the Ripper murders with my back messed up this way, but I'd have to change hands a lot. It would affect my performance. Neither here nor there.

Personally I don't have a problem with an older Ripper. It might explain some hiccups. I don't think the Torso Killer was Jack. I think the Thames murder of 73 was the absolute pinnacle of human destruction. We're talking skinned faces being sewn to a scalped head human destruction. It makes Kelly look like he wasn't even trying. Theres no way that body was just a dump. So if a man is capable of that detail, and care, and apparently has a place to work without getting caught... and 15 years later, while apparently still dropping bodies, he just sucks at it? It's like Da Vinci doodling stick figures. I don't see how there is that much of a degradation while still successfully killing. I also don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. She was killed essentially standing, and thats a very different thing. Jack kills on the ground for a reason. Probably a kind of dumb reason, but he does. It's definitely part of his ritual. Why change it after an objectively very successful kill?And women died all the time. Still do.They can't all be the Ripper.

Also I'm pretty sure some of those torsos and perhaps even Johnny Gill were put through automatic saws. If the Ripper had one of those, I think he would have used it.

[John Wheat]

If you include some of the torso murders, you could be looking at a milder degenerative disease, or simply a bad back in an older killer. Personally I think some of the changes in the ritual with for example, Liz Stride more compelling than simple differences in skill level, but I see where you are coming from.

Just to note I don't believe any of the Torso murders were Jack nor do I think Jack was particularly old. Although a bad back doesn't necessarily have to mean the killer was that old. Also I'm 50/50 as to whether Stride was a Ripper victim.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Thanks for the information. I still think different levels of inebriation could explain supposed differences in skill levels across the C5. Or something that simple.

Cheers John

If you include some of the torso murders, you could be looking at a milder degenerative disease, or simply a bad back in an older killer. Personally I think some of the changes in the ritual with for example, Liz Stride more compelling than simple differences in skill level, but I see where you are coming from.

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Thanks for the information. I still think different levels of inebriation could explain supposed differences in skill levels across the C5. Or something that simple.

Cheers John

[Errata]

So I got into it some, looking at serial killers instead of your average knife wielding drunk. Substance abuse is pretty common in serial killers, generally alcoholism and marijuana use. Then in goes into pill use, meth and heroin are pretty low on the list. Dahmer was a heavy drinker starting in middle school. It is probably 50% of the reason he killed his first victim. He meant to simply stop the man from leaving, he stoved his head in with a free weight. His second murder he blacked out during. Now not all serial killers were that heavy a drinker. Ridgeway probably was, I know that Bundy drank, but not how much. Not the type to admit substance abuse issues. Manson... I have no idea how that man is still alive. Like the Keith Richards of serial killers. But, all of these guys (being the ones I can readily get information on) drank both while they were killing, and while they weren't. And they, like most serial killers, were very routine driven. So if they drank a bunch and then killed, they did that every time. So we don't really have very good examples of what their killing looked like sober, vs. what it looked like while impaired. Dahmer managed quite a bit while blackout drunk and high. Though just based on what he did, and the the order in which he did, I imagine the drilling skull and dismemberment happened more on the sober side.

Because of the ritualistic aspects of serial murder, it seems unusual that a killer would get drunk before one crime, but not the others. And if he was drunk for the others, we would expect to see some similarity in ability. Or inability. But especially if the killer is evolving and is trying something new. If he did in fact go from the "penis substitution" stabbing frenzy of Martha Tabram to trying to remove a uterus in Polly Nichols, and was drunk and decided to try something new in both cutting the throat and in removing an organ... on the one hand, you can see how alcohol might affect your willingness to do such a thing. On the other hand, you can see how that would be a recipe for failure. But those slashes on her abdomen really don't seem right for someone who theoretically knew where the uterus. Maybe if he didn't know, but then the slashes being off wouldn't be a function of alcohol.

But then a lifelong alcoholic like Dahmer was very proficient. He was used to having to display poise and dexterity while falling down drunk. So theres that.

[Errata]

Yes do check I'd be interested to know.

Well, checking appears to consist of flexing my Google-fu and looking at a lot of appalling pictures. It's pretty hard to connect the pictures to the stories, but Just from the gallery it looks like drunken knife fights look like some sadist is tapping people like maple trees for syrup. Deep stabs. Not a lot of sophisticated cutting. Wild slashes. Though I did find a picture of what I imagine a drunken throat cut would look like. Cuts half the throat then swerves up the jaw and cheek up to the brow. The victim lived. I don't know this woman was actually attacked by a drunk, mea culpa.

I mean, I live in Nashville. Boy howdy have I seen drunks fight. Dodged any number of swings. But honestly, those have all been masculinity-on-show hyper testosterone "you looked at my girl funny" fights. And its not like those don't get deadly, they absolutely do. But its not a serial killer attack. Different motives, different moves. So really I'm trying to base this on the medical/physical effect of intoxication. Based on the decreased sense of touch, the severe ataxia, inability to control strength, loss of depth perception, loss of dexterity.... a little drunk might explain the false cut on the throat, but a little drunk knows where the uterus is. Center mass. A little drunk at least cuts in the center of the abdomen. Not slewing off to the right. A lot drunk at most makes a heavy slash on one side of the throat and calls it done. And that would have killed her. It would just take a little longer. Thats what I think. I'm still looking for something officialish.

[John Wheat]

I’d say it’s slightly more complicated than buttoning your own shirt, which most falling down drunk’s can’t manage. The real issue is that drunks don’t know their own strength. So I feel it more likely that he would jam a knife in her throat, stab her rather than slice. It’s much easier than slicing, which requires dexterity. I don’t know that this is what drunken murder looks like. I can check.

Yes do check I'd be interested to know.

[Errata]

I would have thought throat cutting is comparatively easy when compared to removing organs etc.

I’d say it’s slightly more complicated than buttoning your own shirt, which most falling down drunk’s can’t manage. The real issue is that drunks don’t know their own strength. So I feel it more likely that he would jam a knife in her throat, stab her rather than slice. It’s much easier than slicing, which requires dexterity. I don’t know that this is what drunken murder looks like. I can check.

[John Wheat]

Perhaps if he was falling down drunk. But then why didn’t he equally screw up the throat cuts?

I would have thought throat cutting is comparatively easy when compared to removing organs etc.

[Harry D]

hi errata
tabram was a ripper victim and yes before he was the ripper-if you want to phrase it that way. it may have been his trigger kill, unplanned and or just the first successful kill as he learned how to refine his killing technique and what turned him on. and so many similarities to the later kills-victimology, overkill, time and place and the clincher for me-the raised skirt.

I see a reasonable evolution and escalation:

millwood-stabbed, small knife used, not killed
tabram-stabbed, neck targeted, small and large knife used-killed
Nichols-stabbed and ripped, neck targeted but slashed, large knife only-killed
the rest-etc, escalation continues

Definitely possible, Abby. A lot of serial killers tend to be somewhat clumsy with their early attacks. Millwood and Tabram probably had the same attacker. Whether that was the Ripper on his learning curve, we'll never know, but it makes sense.