Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[Errata]

hey erratta
im from Maryland. i had never been to tennesse before. we went last year on vacation because my daughter was with our church group helping the needy in the east part of the state appalacia. we visited, chatanooga, pidgeon forge, gatlinburg, smoky mountains. dude, tennesees got it all goin on! i had no idea there was so much. of course i know about memphis and nashville in the west but was clueless about everything else. dollywood, that crazy tourist strip in gatlinsburg the beauty of the smokey mountains. and bears! black bears walking around everywhere. i love Tenesse now. cool state.

Nothing, and I repeat nothing is cooler than the Ripleys believe it or not museum on the Gatlinburg strip. Yeah there’s a reason the state’s blowing up. Unfortunately that means that a 15 minute drive now takes an hour and a half. Yay progress.

[Errata]

I see a couple of posters agree with you. I am more inclined to think Martha Tabram may have been a ripper victim. It is true that had there been no ripper crimes but Martha had been murdered, we would have likely considered it an angry ex boyfriend or an unsatisfied customer. That might be true of a number of murders committed by serial killers. However, the ripper crimes did occur and the similarities (and differences) need to be considered when determining if she was a likely victim of the ripper. It is by no means overwhelmingly compelling that she was, but there are enough similarities that I find it difficult to dismiss the possibility.

Well I have this nugget for you. I can believe that Martha Tabram was a victim of the ripper, before he became the ripper. When he was just some dude with a lot of issues, performance anxiety, and anger. Before he solidified his mission in his head. Experience sometimes colors our views. My city is right up there, in places where women are killed by men as a cause of death. We may actually leave the country in it. So it’s not entirely surprising that in the past few years two women of my acquaintance have died in a very similar manner to Martha Tabram. One of the hand of her sons father, the other from a first date from hell. So suddenly I don’t see her death as that unusual, admittedly from a modern bias.

[Abby Normal]

Well I have this nugget for you. I can believe that Martha Tabram was a victim of the ripper, before he became the ripper. When he was just some dude with a lot of issues, performance anxiety, and anger. Before he solidified his mission in his head. Experience sometimes colors our views. My city is right up there, in places where women are killed by men as a cause of death. We may actually leave the country in it. So it’s not entirely surprising that in the past few years two women of my acquaintance have died in a very similar manner to Martha Tabram. One of the hand of her sons father, the other from a first date from hell. So suddenly I don’t see her death as that unusual, admittedly from a modern bias.

hi errata
tabram was a ripper victim and yes before he was the ripper-if you want to phrase it that way. it may have been his trigger kill, unplanned and or just the first successful kill as he learned how to refine his killing technique and what turned him on. and so many similarities to the later kills-victimology, overkill, time and place and the clincher for me-the raised skirt.

I see a reasonable evolution and escalation:

millwood-stabbed, small knife used, not killed
tabram-stabbed, neck targeted, small and large knife used-killed
Nichols-stabbed and ripped, neck targeted but slashed, large knife only-killed
the rest-etc, escalation continues

[Errata]

hi errata
tabram was a ripper victim and yes before he was the ripper-if you want to phrase it that way. it may have been his trigger kill, unplanned and or just the first successful kill as he learned how to refine his killing technique and what turned him on. and so many similarities to the later kills-victimology, overkill, time and place and the clincher for me-the raised skirt.

I see a reasonable evolution and escalation:

millwood-stabbed, small knife used, not killed
tabram-stabbed, neck targeted, small and large knife used-killed
Nichols-stabbed and ripped, neck targeted but slashed, large knife only-killed
the rest-etc, escalation continues

I can buy that, though the real mystery is the skill evolution between Nichols and Chapman. It’s like with Nichols he was searching for something in her abdomen in a rough and skillless way, and suddenly with Chapman he was the ability to dissect and remove an organ block. One of the reasons I’ve always kept the sailor idea is because I’m sure there are more bodies. Just not in London.

[John Wheat]

I can buy that, though the real mystery is the skill evolution between Nichols and Chapman. It’s like with Nichols he was searching for something in her abdomen in a rough and skillless way, and suddenly with Chapman he was the ability to dissect and remove an organ block. One of the reasons I’ve always kept the sailor idea is because I’m sure there are more bodies. Just not in London.

I've said this before but couldn't the perceived differences in skill be down to the killer being more inebriated when mutilating Nichols.

[Errata]

I've said this before but couldn't the perceived differences in skill be down to the killer being more inebriated when mutilating Nichols.

Perhaps if he was falling down drunk. But then why didn’t he equally screw up the throat cuts?

[Harry D]

hi errata
tabram was a ripper victim and yes before he was the ripper-if you want to phrase it that way. it may have been his trigger kill, unplanned and or just the first successful kill as he learned how to refine his killing technique and what turned him on. and so many similarities to the later kills-victimology, overkill, time and place and the clincher for me-the raised skirt.

I see a reasonable evolution and escalation:

millwood-stabbed, small knife used, not killed
tabram-stabbed, neck targeted, small and large knife used-killed
Nichols-stabbed and ripped, neck targeted but slashed, large knife only-killed
the rest-etc, escalation continues

Definitely possible, Abby. A lot of serial killers tend to be somewhat clumsy with their early attacks. Millwood and Tabram probably had the same attacker. Whether that was the Ripper on his learning curve, we'll never know, but it makes sense.

[John Wheat]

Perhaps if he was falling down drunk. But then why didn’t he equally screw up the throat cuts?

I would have thought throat cutting is comparatively easy when compared to removing organs etc.

[Errata]

I would have thought throat cutting is comparatively easy when compared to removing organs etc.

I’d say it’s slightly more complicated than buttoning your own shirt, which most falling down drunk’s can’t manage. The real issue is that drunks don’t know their own strength. So I feel it more likely that he would jam a knife in her throat, stab her rather than slice. It’s much easier than slicing, which requires dexterity. I don’t know that this is what drunken murder looks like. I can check.

[John Wheat]

I’d say it’s slightly more complicated than buttoning your own shirt, which most falling down drunk’s can’t manage. The real issue is that drunks don’t know their own strength. So I feel it more likely that he would jam a knife in her throat, stab her rather than slice. It’s much easier than slicing, which requires dexterity. I don’t know that this is what drunken murder looks like. I can check.

Yes do check I'd be interested to know.

[Errata]

Yes do check I'd be interested to know.

Well, checking appears to consist of flexing my Google-fu and looking at a lot of appalling pictures. It's pretty hard to connect the pictures to the stories, but Just from the gallery it looks like drunken knife fights look like some sadist is tapping people like maple trees for syrup. Deep stabs. Not a lot of sophisticated cutting. Wild slashes. Though I did find a picture of what I imagine a drunken throat cut would look like. Cuts half the throat then swerves up the jaw and cheek up to the brow. The victim lived. I don't know this woman was actually attacked by a drunk, mea culpa.

I mean, I live in Nashville. Boy howdy have I seen drunks fight. Dodged any number of swings. But honestly, those have all been masculinity-on-show hyper testosterone "you looked at my girl funny" fights. And its not like those don't get deadly, they absolutely do. But its not a serial killer attack. Different motives, different moves. So really I'm trying to base this on the medical/physical effect of intoxication. Based on the decreased sense of touch, the severe ataxia, inability to control strength, loss of depth perception, loss of dexterity.... a little drunk might explain the false cut on the throat, but a little drunk knows where the uterus is. Center mass. A little drunk at least cuts in the center of the abdomen. Not slewing off to the right. A lot drunk at most makes a heavy slash on one side of the throat and calls it done. And that would have killed her. It would just take a little longer. Thats what I think. I'm still looking for something officialish.

[Errata]

So I got into it some, looking at serial killers instead of your average knife wielding drunk. Substance abuse is pretty common in serial killers, generally alcoholism and marijuana use. Then in goes into pill use, meth and heroin are pretty low on the list. Dahmer was a heavy drinker starting in middle school. It is probably 50% of the reason he killed his first victim. He meant to simply stop the man from leaving, he stoved his head in with a free weight. His second murder he blacked out during. Now not all serial killers were that heavy a drinker. Ridgeway probably was, I know that Bundy drank, but not how much. Not the type to admit substance abuse issues. Manson... I have no idea how that man is still alive. Like the Keith Richards of serial killers. But, all of these guys (being the ones I can readily get information on) drank both while they were killing, and while they weren't. And they, like most serial killers, were very routine driven. So if they drank a bunch and then killed, they did that every time. So we don't really have very good examples of what their killing looked like sober, vs. what it looked like while impaired. Dahmer managed quite a bit while blackout drunk and high. Though just based on what he did, and the the order in which he did, I imagine the drilling skull and dismemberment happened more on the sober side.

Because of the ritualistic aspects of serial murder, it seems unusual that a killer would get drunk before one crime, but not the others. And if he was drunk for the others, we would expect to see some similarity in ability. Or inability. But especially if the killer is evolving and is trying something new. If he did in fact go from the "penis substitution" stabbing frenzy of Martha Tabram to trying to remove a uterus in Polly Nichols, and was drunk and decided to try something new in both cutting the throat and in removing an organ... on the one hand, you can see how alcohol might affect your willingness to do such a thing. On the other hand, you can see how that would be a recipe for failure. But those slashes on her abdomen really don't seem right for someone who theoretically knew where the uterus. Maybe if he didn't know, but then the slashes being off wouldn't be a function of alcohol.

But then a lifelong alcoholic like Dahmer was very proficient. He was used to having to display poise and dexterity while falling down drunk. So theres that.

[John Wheat]

Hi Errata

Thanks for the information. I still think different levels of inebriation could explain supposed differences in skill levels across the C5. Or something that simple.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Thanks for the information. I still think different levels of inebriation could explain supposed differences in skill levels across the C5. Or something that simple.

Cheers John

If you include some of the torso murders, you could be looking at a milder degenerative disease, or simply a bad back in an older killer. Personally I think some of the changes in the ritual with for example, Liz Stride more compelling than simple differences in skill level, but I see where you are coming from.

[John Wheat]

If you include some of the torso murders, you could be looking at a milder degenerative disease, or simply a bad back in an older killer. Personally I think some of the changes in the ritual with for example, Liz Stride more compelling than simple differences in skill level, but I see where you are coming from.

Just to note I don't believe any of the Torso murders were Jack nor do I think Jack was particularly old. Although a bad back doesn't necessarily have to mean the killer was that old. Also I'm 50/50 as to whether Stride was a Ripper victim.

Cheers John