How Many Victims Were There?

[Trevor Marriott]

Now I don't think Michael wanted you to do that.

Naughty Al.

She was a woman who was murdered by a man. That's all Michael sees when he needs a like-for-like comparison between Mrs Brown and the two Whitechapel victims who died on the same night. But he will bend over backwards to avoid any points of comparison between Stride and Eddowes.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
The only comparison between the murder of Stride and Eddowes is that they both occurred on the same night!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[caz]

Its not important that it was unconnected to these alleged crimes Caz, its a de facto example that other people got their throats cut at the very same time as Ripper victims got their throat cuts. VERY relevant when looking at Liz Stride. This pretense that ONLY Jack cuts throats at that place in time is obviously incorrect, and that alone suggests that other women might also have been killed for other reasons than for mutilating their abdomen pm. like Stride, for example.

Not knowing the Motive doesnt eliminate one. Knowing a Motive within a series creates a profile, (pm mutilation), which Stride, again, doesnt fit. Instead of cramming the square block into the round hole, just use whats there.

Are you seriously trying to argue that because a husband murdered his wife elsewhere in London on the same night as Stride and Eddowes were murdered, that makes it more likely that Stride and Eddowes were killed by different men, than if Mr and Mrs Brown had been happily married? We must forget all about the similarities between two of these murders, and ignore the total dissimilarity with the Brown case, yet rely on this one to tell us that all three were unconnected?

And I thought the club conspiracy idea was a complete non-starter...

[caz]

Murder in Westminster

https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../dt881001.html

Now I don't think Michael wanted you to do that.

Naughty Al.

She was a woman who was murdered by a man. That's all Michael sees when he needs a like-for-like comparison between Mrs Brown and the two Whitechapel victims who died on the same night. But he will bend over backwards to avoid any points of comparison between Stride and Eddowes.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Now when we consider Stride we can actually factor in a known possible interrupter (Diemschutz) so its entirely reasonable to accept the possibility of an interrupted Ripper killing whilst at the same time accepting that she might not have been a ripper victim. To deny this possibility suggests a preconception or a person who, for whatever reason, seeks to eliminate Stride as a potential victim.

You continue to suggest a scenario that has no basis in known evidence, and your explanation for doing so is your opinion that there would not necessarily be any evidence of an act being interrupted. To be clear, an interruption implies something begun but left incomplete. Like the stripping of Marys thighs for example, an action that seems to indicate a desire to strip flesh from bone, yet left unfulfilled on her left leg. Had someone intended Liz further harm, like a serial abdominal mutilator would have, there would be a physical expression of that desire, no matter how minute or subtle. She would have been turned on her back, for a blatant example. Skirts lifted..like the others. Some evidence the killer at least touched the deceased since she was dropped to the ground, likely with the killer holding her by the scarf while cutting and then releasing his hold. Someone seen fleeing. Something would indicate further intent. The absence of any such evidence makes entertaining an idea of an interruption frivolous and not conducive to producing any truths about this murder. We can entertain ourselves forever imaging scenarios, often because people want to get to a finish line they anticipated. Like a Rippers guilt.

However if you want real truth and answers, you have to use what is there and leave your imagination and entertainment factors out of it.

I believe that there is enough evidence to make some fundamental conclusions to the question of How Stride dies and one is that she is killed by someone from that property who wanted only to cut her once. There is no credible witness that sees anyone in that street near the gates from 12:35 until 12:55-56 when someone passes by. No-one is seen from that time on until after 1, by neither the young couple or Fanny Mortimer. The physical evidence is self explanatory, a single cut, drawn across the throat, with the intent of inflicting a mortal injury.

[Michael W Richards]

Of course it’s irrelevant. No one has suggested that only the ripper cut throats but it’s narrowed down by the fact that Stride was possibly killed by someone that she didn’t know, and that she was a prostitute (whether full or part-time) and that her murder took place outdoors and in the early hours. And that the killer evaded capture. And that these took place within a small area. Stride came from the same class as the other victims, she engaged in prostitution, she was killed in the same small area, on the street. To say that she doesn’t ‘fit’ is bizarre.

Are you speaking about the Liz Stride that had been gainfully employed "among the Jews" for some time prior to this night, the one that was seen talking to men but not going off with any of them, the one who left her lodgings with enough money for her doss and a suggestion she was staying elsewhere that night, the one with mints for her breath and a new flower on her jacket? The one with a boottop length skirt on? Or the one that had herself removed from an active prostitute register in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny?
...

So instead of taking the entirely reasoned and reasonable view that Stride might or might not have been a victim we should completely eliminate an entirely plausible possibility (that the killer might have been interrupted) and so skew our opinion one way? This is completely illogical. Acknowledging reasonable possibilities however is sensible.

The reason to exclude Liz Stride from a series of murders with abdominal mutilation is abundantly clear by the physical evidencee alone, the circumstantial evidence suggests that the killer was unseen on the street from 12:35 until he kills, which then suggests the killer was off the street with ease of access to the soon to be victim. FGrom the same property on which she is found is likely.

I just follow the veidence, you force it into whatever shape makes it palatable for you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What if there had been another victim? Let's say that a women was found dead in a street in mid October. She was a known prostitute and she'd had her throat cut but there was no mutilations. Could we assume that she wasn't a ripper victim? We had no 'Diemschutz figure' as a potential interrupter? I'd say, no more than we could assume that she was a victim because she was a prostitute who had her throat cut in the street. The only thing 'different' was the lack of mutilations but we couldn't state for a fact that the killer wasn't interrupted or spooked by someone or something.
So this is the difference in approach. We can either say

a) she might possibly have been a ripper victim but the killer might have been disturbed by someone or something.

or,

b) no mutilations so definitely not Ripper.

I think that most would say that a) is the reasonable, reasoned approach.

Now when we consider Stride we can actually factor in a known possible interrupter (Diemschutz) so its entirely reasonable to accept the possibility of an interrupted Ripper killing whilst at the same time accepting that she might not have been a ripper victim. To deny this possibility suggests a preconception or a person who, for whatever reason, seeks to eliminate Stride as a potential victim.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course it’s irrelevant. No one has suggested that only the ripper cut throats but it’s narrowed down by the fact that Stride was possibly killed by someone that she didn’t know, and that she was a prostitute (whether full or part-time) and that her murder took place outdoors and in the early hours. And that the killer evaded capture. And that these took place within a small area. Stride came from the same class as the other victims, she engaged in prostitution, she was killed in the same small area, on the street. To say that she doesn’t ‘fit’ is bizarre.

...

So instead of taking the entirely reasoned and reasonable view that Stride might or might not have been a victim we should completely eliminate an entirely plausible possibility (that the killer might have been interrupted) and so skew our opinion one way? This is completely illogical. Acknowledging reasonable possibilities however is sensible.

[Michael W Richards]

But that third woman was so obviously unconnected with any of the Whitechapel victims that I fail to see why you routinely have to wheel her in, as if her case is relevant to anything at all.

Its not important that it was unconnected to these alleged crimes Caz, its a de facto example that other people got their throats cut at the very same time as Ripper victims got their throat cuts. VERY relevant when looking at Liz Stride. This pretense that ONLY Jack cuts throats at that place in time is obviously incorrect, and that alone suggests that other women might also have been killed for other reasons than for mutilating their abdomen pm. like Stride, for example.

Not knowing the Motive doesnt eliminate one. Knowing a Motive within a series creates a profile, (pm mutilation), which Stride, again, doesnt fit. Instead of cramming the square block into the round hole, just use whats there.

[Michael W Richards]

3 Nichols.chapman.Eddowes

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Im on the fence about Eddowes, by the circumstantial evidence and the skills shown.

[Pcdunn]

Thank you for the reply.

[Wickerman]

I wonder if the sheer number of stab wounds could be why two soldiers were suspected?

Or did the authorities at the time decide it was one killer?

No, it was the fact Tabram (plus Pearly Poll) were seen in the company of two soldiers just before midnight. Tabram's time of death was estimated to be just prior to 3:00am, so plenty of time for her to meet up with someone else.
It's by no means certain she is a Ripper victim, some prefer to think so, often for the sake of their theory.

[Abby Normal]

there was also a car in the 70s called the Vega. In Spanish the plural would be Las Vegas. it was a piece of crap though and didnt last long.

[jerryd]

Las Vegas Nevada or New Mexico??

There's actually two more. One in Honduras and one in Venezuela.

[Pcdunn]

Yes Gareth, the Tottenham Court Road torso. I guess I left out "Road" in one of my posts. I'll blame it on the fact I'm from Vegas. Excuse me, Las Vegas, in case you were confused about which one.

Las Vegas Nevada or New Mexico??

[Pcdunn]

IMHO, a drunken rage results in three to five blows, with the knife, max. By then Tabram would have been hurt enough to satisfy his rage. 39 blows, is more than rage, it is a mental illness. I have tried to visualize the act, and I can't see him making it through that many blows without having to take several breaths. Even a prize fighter can't throw 40 blows consecutively; he had to have stopped and started again several times; just can't see it as a single act of rage.

I am not saying it wasn't a pissed off punter that night, but whoever he was his act was beyond rage.

I wonder if the sheer number of stab wounds could be why two soldiers were suspected?

Or did the authorities at the time decide it was one killer?