How Many Victims Were There?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Trevor,

How is time and location in any way relevant? It only indicates a difference from other murders. Is there any reason to think that Jack operated on a strict timetable that couldn't be changed or that there were geographic barriers that he was unable or unwilling to cross?

c.d.

You do realize you answered your own question? And you also realize that mid early morning murders are not just after midnight murders? The time may be very relevant to the killer and where he lives and what he does, whether you see that or not.

[c.d.]

Hello Trevor,

How is time and location in any way relevant? It only indicates a difference from other murders. Is there any reason to think that Jack operated on a strict timetable that couldn't be changed or that there were geographic barriers that he was unable or unwilling to cross?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Both killed using different knives
Stride killed out of time with all the other victims
Stride no body wounds
Stride killed almost on a main street
Stride the only victim killed south of The Whitechapel road
Stride killed when the public were still moving about and club members were in an out of the club.

I would say they are good reasons to suggest a different killer

And this old tosh about being disturbed and unable to finish what he was intent on doing if farcical just an excuse to link her murder to the rest

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Since you and I are on the same page with Stride Im reluctant to object to the list you made, but the Main Street issue isnt really valid, Polly was killed on sidewalk on the street. I think Id add one thing too......Stride is the only victim where many people known to be awake and out of sight of the street were there at the time of the murder. The club attendees still hanging around. Id say that within that group MUST BE your single cut killer.

[Michael W Richards]

Both known to engage in prostitution, both had their throats cut, both killed outdoors, both killed within a 15 minute walk of each other and less than an hour apart. Yeah, no comparison at al.

Do you have evidence when Liz last solicited before that night? Gainfully employed for weeks or months prior to that day. Yes, she ONLY had her throat cut, and in the East End violence towards street women was well known and documented. Sorry...did you have any actual point to make?

[Trevor Marriott]

Both known to engage in prostitution, both had their throats cut, both killed outdoors, both killed within a 15 minute walk of each other and less than an hour apart. Yeah, no comparison at al.

Both killed using different knives
Stride killed out of time with all the other victims
Stride no body wounds
Stride killed almost on a main street
Stride the only victim killed south of The Whitechapel road
Stride killed when the public were still moving about and club members were in an out of the club.

I would say they are good reasons to suggest a different killer

And this old tosh about being disturbed and unable to finish what he was intent on doing if farcical just an excuse to link her murder to the rest

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Nothing naughty intended, just pointing Fiver in the right direction.

I'd say the bigger comparison is Chapman and Eddowes, it's hard to see how they're not connected? Nose cuts? It's a minor difference that doesn't outweigh the similarities.

Of course, Issenschmidt was tucked up in the sanitarium at that point.

I agree, and if only Stride had been killed after Eddowes, there would have been less reason to connect them. But the reality is that they were connected in many minds because it was thought that Eddowes only became a victim as a result of the killer's lack of opportunity to do something similar earlier that night, with Stride. It remains a fact that any killer would have been taking an insane risk to hang about at the scene of her murder, for any reason, so the possibility cannot be ruled out that Stride stood her ground, which pissed off the man with mutilation in mind, who went off to find a more receptive victim.

The author of the Saucy Jacky postcard had no trouble with the concept, many decades before the likes of Ted Bundy had their own genuine double events, so we should be able to grapple with it ourselves in the 21st century.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

Well that was really helpful, Trev. Thanks for the tip.

Love,

Caz
X

That made me laugh.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

olmes View Post
Of course it’s irrelevant. No one has suggested that only the ripper cut throats but it’s narrowed down by the fact that Stride was possibly killed by someone that she didn’t know, and that she was a prostitute (whether full or part-time) and that her murder took place outdoors and in the early hours. And that the killer evaded capture. And that these took place within a small area. Stride came from the same class as the other victims, she engaged in prostitution, she was killed in the same small area, on the street. To say that she doesn’t ‘fit’ is bizarre.

Are you speaking about the Liz Stride that had been gainfully employed "among the Jews" for some time prior to this night, the one that was seen talking to men but not going off with any of them, the one who left her lodgings with enough money for her doss and a suggestion she was staying elsewhere that night, the one with mints for her breath and a new flower on her jacket? The one with a boottop length skirt on? Or the one that had herself removed from an active prostitute register in Goteborg before coming to London as a nanny?

Ah, the Rubenhold Defence. So we can ignore the above. A woman known to engage in prostitution seen in the company of more than one man. Maybe she was collecting for The Salvation Army? That she did work among the Jews doesn’t preclude her from prostitution unless the Jews were paying huge wages? But I forgot, you’re the man that won’t even accept that most people couldn’t afford to own a watch so anything is likely in your world.
...

So instead of taking the entirely reasoned and reasonable view that Stride might or might not have been a victim we should completely eliminate an entirely plausible possibility (that the killer might have been interrupted) and so skew our opinion one way? This is completely illogical. Acknowledging reasonable possibilities however is sensible.

The reason to exclude Liz Stride from a series of murders with abdominal mutilation is abundantly clear by the physical evidencee alone, the circumstantial evidence suggests that the killer was unseen on the street from 12:35 until he kills, which then suggests the killer was off the street with ease of access to the soon to be victim. FGrom the same property on which she is found is likely.

No it isn’t. Unseen doesn’t mean non-existent. Not on Planet Earth anyway. BS Man was seen which is why you have to invent a desperate, baseless fantasy to try and sideline him.

I just follow the veidence, you force it into whatever shape makes it palatable for you

Which is exactly what you do to shoehorn your cover up so that in turn you can shoehorn Issendschmidt.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Caz
The only comparison between the murder of Stride and Eddowes is that they both occurred on the same night!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Both known to engage in prostitution, both had their throats cut, both killed outdoors, both killed within a 15 minute walk of each other and less than an hour apart. Yeah, no comparison at al.

[caz]

Hi Caz
The only comparison between the murder of Stride and Eddowes is that they both occurred on the same night!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well that was really helpful, Trev. Thanks for the tip.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I just follow the veidence, you force it into whatever shape makes it palatable for you.

Where is your evidence that Stride's killer knew her well enough to know what her intentions were that night, or any other night? It's more about a killer's perception of his victim, that dictates his behaviour towards her.

Assuming he did come from inside the club to kill her, why would that necessarily rule him out as the ripper? There was no way he could safely do anything beyond cutting her throat there in any case, knowing how many people were in the club, or still coming and going. But still he had the urge to kill, and little choice but to leave her where she lay, to be found within minutes.

You see a man who wasn't a murderer until, for some unknown reason, he chose to cut Stride's throat, in a location he could be associated with. Yet he was able to kill with speed and efficiency, even in this busy location, and managed to escape without being seen near the scene. I would love to know if you have an actual suspect in mind for this murder, who ticks all the boxes you have constructed.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Caz
The only comparison between the murder of Stride and Eddowes is that they both occurred on the same night!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

How people argue otherwise is always a source of wonder.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If there was a league table for nonsense Michael you would be in a league of your own.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you seriously trying to argue that because a husband murdered his wife elsewhere in London on the same night as Stride and Eddowes were murdered, that makes it more likely that Stride and Eddowes were killed by different men, than if Mr and Mrs Brown had been happily married? We must forget all about the similarities between two of these murders, and ignore the total dissimilarity with the Brown case, yet rely on this one to tell us that all three were unconnected?

And I thought the club conspiracy idea was a complete non-starter...

I didnt say that. I said Browns slitting his wifes throat with a knife on the same night as 2 other women had that done is empirical proof that other men aside from Jack slit womens throats with knives at that time in that area. Since only 1 woman of 3 had abdominal mutilation one would think it shouldnt be so hard to accept that not only Jack the serial abdominal mutilator killed with knives...but of course you cant have that. All in, right? Jack or nothing. You probably feel its more likely that Stride fell on a blade than someone other than Jack killed her.

Oh yeah, of course there was that interruption...

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Now I don't think Michael wanted you to do that.

Naughty Al.

She was a woman who was murdered by a man. That's all Michael sees when he needs a like-for-like comparison between Mrs Brown and the two Whitechapel victims who died on the same night. But he will bend over backwards to avoid any points of comparison between Stride and Eddowes.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Nothing naughty intended, just pointing Fiver in the right direction.

I'd say the bigger comparison is Chapman and Eddowes, it's hard to see how they're not connected? Nose cuts? It's a minor difference that doesn't outweigh the similarities.

Of course, Issenschmidt was tucked up in the sanitarium at that point.