Did Jack only kill 3?

[Michael W Richards]

Baffling?

Its quite straightforward. However some just cannot help but fictionalise the story.

Monty

And conversely some will not see the forest for the trees.

In case youve not noticed Monty none of the old dogma has solved a single Canonical crime. So trying out other options for size is not only wise, its almost essential to do so.

We have existing statements and quotes and the odd, yes odd, co-incidental usage by Kate of almost the entirety of Mary Kellys name and address in her 2 last aliases. They share Irish connections, Kates through relationships.

The idea that there was some connection between the 2, particularly since Dorset Street itself plays quite prominently in the Ripper tales, isnt far fetched. Just unproven.

Regards,
Michael

[Michael W Richards]

Mike.
At 8:30 pm Kate was laying across the footpath, drunk, with a crowd standing around her. Is this Kate being "with people" that you are talking about?

Are you suggesting some of those people made an agreement with a drunk laying on the path to see her later?

Who were those people?, just passers-by, having a nosey?
If you suggest she was meeting people with a view to criminal activity, then we need to know that any one of those people were actually criminals.
You suggesting they might be does not mean anything. We are supposed to draw conclusions based on evidence, not suggest that Kate "might" have been getting involved in blackmail and that she "may" have met some people who "may" have been criminals.

Thats too many "maybe's" Mike. Its a fictional scenario not based on anything tangible.

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, Lynn clarified it for you but to add I believe that she met with "people" that afternoon, perhaps following up on a conversation with one or more earlier in the week, and they plied her with booze while assessing how real a threat her knowledge was to their work.

If the hypothesis is somewhat accurate, I would have to believe that the "work" would be anarchy and terrorism, and they would surely kill anyone who threatened to expose one or more of their conspirators.

Cheers,
Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Just an observation, but clearly all three stories you quoted had a common source, the Press Association. It may not make any difference, but with a common source the three separate stories do not provide corroborastion.

Don.

I used all 3 Don because their wording is not a verbatim reiteration of a press release, and I believe items that were released by the Association were more properly vetted and likely more accurate.

It was really to illustrate that only the Times, on I believe the 2nd, stated the pawn ticket was issued to Anne Kelly, as Lynn stated.

Regards,

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks for the references.

OK, let's pursue this line for a bit. You are suggesting, what?

Something along the lines of a confusion between "MJK" and Kate? Then it's "MJK" who is really wanted?

I am wondering how that story could be made to tie in with Kate having information on someone?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I believe that Kate may have known Mary Kelly through the same social circles I mentioned. She may also believe Mary has the same information she had, which also makes her a target. Perhaps part of the bargain Kate strikes with her hypothetical representatives of a serious bad guy is that she provide them with a name of any others who shared the info.

I believe its at least possible, given the timing, the location and the intermediary, that Mary might have acted as a consort to a Fenian when she traveled to Paris. We know they met other Fenians and British secret police there over the years and we know some women were not merely wall dressing on these occasions.

Just speculating, but using what little evidence there is.

Cheers Lynn.

[Phil Carter]

I just find it baffling she didn't use Catherine Kelly or Kate Kelly when asked her name.

That isn't fictionalizing anything Monty.. you know full well what name she gave.

Now please cut the attitude eh?.. If you are having a bad day, take it out over someone else.. Im tired after a very heavy day and don't need these inane comments every time I post... so please...drop it eh? Ain't in the mood ok? Rare..but true. Just leave it.

thank you

Phil

[Phil H]

Was Eddowes killed by mistake?
Again in the realms of speculation, however it is possible that all the killer knew was, the woman he was after, lived with a man called Kelly, and used the name Mary Jane.
I always have remembered the nun, from Barlow and Watts series in the early 1970s, albeit we have to be a bit cautious..
Quote..
''If it was not for the Kelly woman , none of the murders would have happened''.

These questions raise a whole nexus of issues.

The "Jack was always looking for Mary Kelly" scenario goes back to at least Leonard Matters and his Dr Stanley theory/invention (1929?). The 1959 film includes the same question.

I think we can say that idea has been overtaken by time (though I still respect Matters highly for the first part of his book).

Knight (and Barlow and Watt a bit) hinted at something similar - viz: that the conspirators were looking for MJK all the time. Again, I think (pace From Hell) that the Knight theory met its maker sometime ago.

As for Eddowes and her "false name" - coincidence?

There is now the chance that Kelly was mixed up on the fringes (or in the middle of) some Fenian conspiracy - but as far as I am aware no evidence beyond speculative/circumstantial. Did Eddowes know of this - we simply don't know - but I prefer the coincidence explanation unless/until we get more evidence. After all, she was with a man named Kelly!!

(Could it be that everyone in the alleged Fenian plot had the nickname "Kelly" as a sort of code? Rather like "I am Spartacus!!" or like "Jacques" in the French Revolution?)

I thought the "nun" anecdote had been exploded, but I am unsure why I think that.

Phil H

[Monty]

Baffling?

Its quite straightforward. However some just cannot help but fictionalise the story.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

In the back of my mind , I have often believed a connection between Eddowes and Mary Kelly ,if only for the dreadful mutilation including facial.. on poor Kate.

Was Eddowes killed by mistake?

.

Hello REichard,

I've always said a 2-1-2 or a 2-1-1-1 scenario.

The reason for the 2-1-2 is the above.. the wanton destruction and attempt to defacialize..to take away an identity. Because of the time restrictions with Eddowes, this was only partly possible, especially if one believes the two murders were connected by the same hand.

If the two murders wern't connected. a 2-1-1-1- scenario.

I admit to being in two minds. No conspiracy, but the Irish question rears it's head here, particularly with Kelly. As regards Eddowes.. giving that name at the Police Station nags me. Because as far as I know, she may well have been known as John Kelly's woman, but not using Catherine Kelly baffles me.

I wonder if we shall ever find out?

best wishes

Phil

[curious4]

Sorry but that spring onion always does it for me!

Chuckling

Dave

Well you never know when a spring onion might come in handy! Be prepared, that's my motto.

C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
In the back of my mind , I have often believed a connection between Eddowes and Mary Kelly ,if only for the dreadful mutilation including facial.. on poor Kate.
The fact that she lived with a man called Kelly could have a connection with Mary [Millers court] as McCarthy informed the press that Mary Jane, some months back had come to live with a man called Kelly, so one wonders exactly when 'he' became aware of the name Barnett?
question.
Was Eddowes killed by mistake?
Again in the realms of speculation, however it is possible that all the killer knew was, the woman he was after, lived with a man called Kelly, and used the name Mary Jane.
I always have remembered the nun, from Barlow and Watts series in the early 1970s, albeit we have to be a bit cautious..
Quote..
''If it was not for the Kelly woman , none of the murders would have happened''.
This allegedly came from a conversation, that this nun heard from a elderly sister in around 1915..who was in the area in 1888.
I love a conspiracy ...
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Jon. Although I do not like to speak for Mike, I think the suggestion turns round the one/s who bought Kate drinks.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Jon, when Kate was with the people I am suggesting it was already 8pm. They agree to meet later. Knowing that Kate was potted at 8pm...

Mike.
At 8:30 pm Kate was laying across the footpath, drunk, with a crowd standing around her. Is this Kate being "with people" that you are talking about?

Are you suggesting some of those people made an agreement with a drunk laying on the path to see her later?

Who were those people?, just passers-by, having a nosey?
If you suggest she was meeting people with a view to criminal activity, then we need to know that any one of those people were actually criminals.
You suggesting they might be does not mean anything. We are supposed to draw conclusions based on evidence, not suggest that Kate "might" have been getting involved in blackmail and that she "may" have met some people who "may" have been criminals.

Thats too many "maybe's" Mike. Its a fictional scenario not based on anything tangible.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

tie in

Hello Mike. Thanks for the references.

OK, let's pursue this line for a bit. You are suggesting, what?

Something along the lines of a confusion between "MJK" and Kate? Then it's "MJK" who is really wanted?

I am wondering how that story could be made to tie in with Kate having information on someone?

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Michael,

Just an observation, but clearly all three stories you quoted had a common source, the Press Association. It may not make any difference, but with a common source the three separate stories do not provide corroborastion.

Don.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. It might be helpful to get rid of a rough edge or two--that way one might see the big picture a bit clearer.

Do you have the contemporary sources for those names and locations? I have not seen the Dorset st ones, that I recall.

Cheers.
LC

Hi again Lynn,

Youre right, I referred to some sources erroneously. Here are the quotes.

Freemans Journal, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The Press Association learns that the police think they have obtained a clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre square. She is supposed to be the person who as taken to the police station a short time ago for drunkenness. She then gave the name of Kelly, and said she lived at 6 Fashion street. One of the pawn tickets found near the body was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street."

The Daily News, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The woman to whom the constables refer was not charged with any offence, but when detained at the station she gave the name of Kelly, and said she was living at 6, Fashion-street. One of the two pawn tickets picked up near the scene of the murder on Sunday was to the effect that Jane Kelly, of 6, Dorset-street, had pawned a pair of boots on the 28th ult. with a shopkeeper in Church-street, Spitalfields, for 2s., 6d."

The Irish Times, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The police think they have obtained a clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre square. She is supposed to be the person who as taken to the police station a short time ago for drunkenness. She then gave the name of Kelly, and said she lived at 6 Fashion street. One of the pawn tickets found near the body was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street."

Thats why Ive stated that Mary Jane Kelly, of 26 Dorset Street can almost be made completely from the names and addresses in her aliases that day.

Cheers mate,

Michael