Did Jack only kill 3?

[lynn cates]

good

Hello Dave. Thanks. Do. I have read it 3 times--quite profitable.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

info please

Hello Jon. Indeed? I am all attention.

Not the Birrell couple, perchance?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no mention

Hello (again) Dave. Yes, that was my take. Also, it seems to rest on the doctor not having mentioned at inquest traces of faeces in the facial wounds.

Hence, I find Gareth's reasoning only probable.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Indeed? I am all attention.
Not the Birrell couple, perchance?

Edward M`Kenna
McKenna. Pedlar. 16 or 15 Brick Lane Whitechapel.
The man had recently been on a tramp hop picking in Kent, and had only just returned to London when following suspicious behaviour he was handed over to a Policeman in Flower and Dean St on the evening of Sept 14th and taken to Commercial Police station.
The man Edward M'Kenna, who was taken to Commercial-street Police Station on Friday night, and there detained, was on Saturday confronted by several witnesses, who failed to recognise him, and he was in consequence liberated. It was ascertained that he had slept at a common lodging house in Brick-lane on the night of the murder of Annie Chapman. Mrs. Lloyd and her daughter came from Heath-street. They were not able to identify the man as the person who had been chased in their neighborhood by some boys, and who was alleged to have held a knife behind his back. A Mrs. Lyons was also called, and in her opinion M'Kenna was not the individual she had seen in Flower and Dean-street on the Sunday following the Hanbury-street tragedy. Similarly the potman from the Ten Bells public-house could not identify him as the man who had angrily called a woman out of the bar on the morning of the murder; and Mr. Taylor, who on the same day had watched a man of suspicious appearance leave the Prince Albert and go into Bishopsgate-street, also could not say that M'Kenna was the same. In each case, it is said, the description given resembled that of M`Kenna.
He gains a living by peddling laces and other small articles.
McKenna is a slightly-built man is about five feet seven or eight inches in height, and is dressed very shabbily. He has a careworn look. Covering a head of hair, somewhat sandy, with beard and moustache of the same colour, he wore, when arrested, a cloth skull-cap. On being searched, an odd collection of articles was found upon him—pieces of dress fabrics, old and dirty linen, two or three pocket handkerchiefs, one a comparatively clean white one, and a white one with a red spotted border; two worn purses, with several compartments; two small tin boxes, a small card-board box, a small leather strap, which might serve the purpose of a garter, and a spring onion.

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry but that spring onion always does it for me!

Chuckling

Dave

[lynn cates]

hop to it

Hello Jon. Thanks for that. Interesting.

I like the date when this happened. Many hop pickers were coming back to London due to the bad harvest. An article in "The Echo" from 5 September indicates as much.

Never understood why John and Kate stayed on 3 extra weeks.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

She meets with a person or people Saturday afternoon that act as intermediaries for the person she intends to present evidence against and a deal is struck and sealed with some booze. She will meet a man with a red scarf at midnight or 1am outside Mitre Square. From there she will be taken to where she will be given a greater sum than the accumulated official reward. To keep quiet. Hush money is always more expensive.

Hi Mike.
It's her getting arrested Saturday evening that puts a spanner in the works for this 'appointment' argument.
It isn't necessary for her to arrange to meet someone at 1:00 am rather than earlier at 7:00 or 8:00 pm. It is only necessary in the argument to make it work.

Her man, John Kelly, had made inquiries and found out that she had been arrested "Saturday afternoon", and he also says she was in the habit of returning to her lodgings early, no later than 8:00 or 9:00 pm.
They had planned to meet at 4:00 pm, so when she didn't show up Kelly made inquiries.
If Eddowes was really intent on identifying the killer, was she keeping this a secret from Kelly?, not likely if she had already told the superintendent at Mile End.
So, wouldn't Eddowes and Kelly be doing this together? - so why the delay?

I digress...
Two interesting details (but unrelated to this thread), come out of John Kelly's testimony.

1 - The fact that "afternoon" was indistinguishable from "evening" in the vernacular of the period. That is to say, "evening" was also termed "afternoon", in reality, that is what it is. The "evening" IS after noon.

In the Millers Court murder Thomas Bowyer claimed in his testimony that he last saw Mary Kelly alive "on Wednesday afternoon". Yet, we also read that he saw Kelly talking to a well-dressed man "with peculiar eyes", on Wednesday evening.
There are those on Casebook who have dismissed this later statement because "afternoon" is not "evening" - well, clearly it was.

Const. Lewis Robinson had arrested Eddowes at 8:30 pm Saturday night/evening. John Kelly had heard Eddowes was arrested Saturday afternoon. They were clearly taking about the same event.

2 - John Kelly informed the police that if they couldn't get their lodging money "they would have to walk about all night".
It was the legal terminology used at the time, not to be taken literally. If you recall, Hutchinson made the same claim, but is ridiculed for it.
The police like to think that the homeless will not find some doorway to sleep in, but will actually do the legal thing and walk about all night.


Back to Eddowes..
Const. Hutt made the decision to release Kate so long as she was sober enough to know who she was and where she lived, hence, giving her name and address.
No killer could have known when Kate was going to be sober enough to be released in the eyes of the constable on duty. Therefore, no believable argument can be proposed that she intended to meet someone after midnight.
Kelly was already expecting her home before 8-9:00 pm anyway, at the very latest.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

"She meets with a person or people Saturday afternoon that act as intermediaries for the person she intends to present evidence against and a deal is struck and sealed with some booze."

Hi, Mike,
Unlike Lynn, I can't see intermediaries.

People talk. The whole point of the payoff would have been to keep word about his "work" from getting out.

Intermediaries would have multiplied the number of people who knew the killer's secret, and the whole point of the pay off would have been to keep it secret.

Now, if she met with the killer himself Saturday afternoon and he agreed to her demands, but needed a few hours to get the money, that might work. They could have toasted their agreement with several drinks, or he could have given her what he had and made arrangements to meet her later with the rest of the money. She could have celebrated by having a few drinks . . . So, the rest of the money would be the reason that she turned away from home to go to the meeting place, hoping he would still be around, maybe.

But, no, intermediaries don't work for me . . .

I'm not positive a meeting works either . . .

[Michael W Richards]

1. Alright. But if they are coming back on Thursday, whence did she obtain the information?

2. The problem here is the timing. Could her assailants know exactly WHEN she would be released? If those times are correct, could Kate KNOW that they would still be waiting at 1.30?

3. But where would Kate have obtained such information?

4. I believe that her pawn ticket read "Anne Kelly." Her address was given as #6 Fashion st, (at Bishopsgate Station) if I recall properly.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

To respond;

1. She already knew of dangerous people due to her friends in the circles that she used to hang with when she was with Conway. An Irish army man as I recall. She assumed she knew one or more of them that could have done something like she would be accusing them of.

2. If her assailants knew that she was in the City jail they would also know that she would be released at some point, only the Met kept D & D's all night, and if it was they who were the ones most eager to have this meeting come off to shut Kate up, maybe they would wait around a bit to see if she showed up when released. Maybe thats why Kate had her hand on the mans chest, as I mentioned to you in another thread..." Oh, there you are...what a relief, I thought Id missed you..."

3. Heres my thinking...Irish people in East End London would gravitate towards other Irish people in the area, mixing the self rule agitators with regular respectable folk. The same social circle might contain dynamiters and seamstresses. When she was with Conway she likely travelled in his circles, and since he had enough influence on her to enable his initials to be permanently tattooed onto her arm, perhaps he influenced her thinking too.

4. The pawn ticket was to Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset Street, it was dated for the Friday not the Saturday morning, and her booking at Bishopsgate resulted in the alias you mentioned being given. Which means that in her last 24 hours she never identified herself by her given name and instead used combinations of the name Mary Jane Kelly, 26 Dorset Street. Small world.

To Phil, I myself see great disparity with the murders of Annie and Mary, beginning with locale and age of victim, and culminating with the wounds. I dont see the hand that cut Annie as the same that cut Kate. And I also see, as the Senior Medical examiners saw, a great similarity in the murders of Annie and Polly. To me C1 is the perfect predicate to C2, and it explains the locale. The backyard was used instead of on the street because the chance of interruption, which I believe occurred in the C1 murder, was too great. I believe that killer was insane, and that he is the rightful heir to the Ripper moniker. I believe also that Lynn may have shed light on that man.

What people resist is the idea that more than one human being in a city could be deviant enough to kill and mutilate a body. I can say that is provably incorrect ideology in the modern era, and in the Fall of 1888, incorrect in contemporary terms. If I was a thug capable of murder and all I had to do to conceal one of my crimes is to cut the body open, I would imagine that wouldnt be a hard decision for someone like that. As I suggested, it may have been made on the spot.

As to "even worse" crimes, to my mind someone who explodes incendiary devices in crowds hoping to kill as many strangers...men, women and children... as possible, is even worse than the men that killed any of the Canonicals. Irish revolutionaries were there in London, is it so unlikely that in her Irish circles she would know of one or more?

Maybe Kate saw the Ripper acts as terrorism and thats why she thought she knew the killers.

Best regards gents,

Michael

[lynn cates]

Q & A

Hello Mike. Thanks.

“1. She already knew of dangerous people due to her friends in the circles that she used to hang with when she was with Conway. An Irish army man as I recall. She assumed she knew one or more of them that could have done something like she would be accusing them of.”

I am curious about what kind of chap we are talking about. Did he kill someone? Did she merely think it?

“2. If her assailants knew that she was in the City jail they would also know that she would be released at some point, only the Met kept D & D's all night, and if it was they who were the ones most eager to have this meeting come off to shut Kate up, maybe they would wait around a bit to see if she showed up when released. Maybe that’s why Kate had her hand on the mans chest, as I mentioned to you in another thread..." Oh, there you are...what a relief, I thought I’d missed you..." “

But that could be a good long wait. If there was an appointment, it could have been for 10. Will they wait so long?

“3. Here’s my thinking...Irish people in East End London would gravitate towards other Irish people in the area, mixing the self rule agitators with regular respectable folk. The same social circle might contain dynamiters and seamstresses. When she was with Conway she likely travelled in his circles, and since he had enough influence on her to enable his initials to be permanently tattooed onto her arm, perhaps he influenced her thinking too.”

So are we seeking dynamitards? Would Kate be opposed to them?

“4. The pawn ticket was to Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset Street, it was dated for the Friday not the Saturday morning, and her booking at Bishopsgate resulted in the alias you mentioned being given. Which means that in her last 24 hours she never identified herself by her given name and instead used combinations of the name Mary Jane Kelly, 26 Dorset Street. Small world.”

“The Times” says Anne Kelly (Evans and Skinner, p. 194) Address, #6 Fashion st. (Mary Anne Kelly). (Ibid, p. 195)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I know there are some loose ends with my hypothetical scenario here, but to address some of the counter-points...

Jon, when Kate was with the people I am suggesting it was already 8pm. They agree to meet later. Knowing that Kate was potted at 8pm I dont see setting a time for midnight or 1am as unreasonable, after all, I am talking about a criminal and "late" hours are what they work. Thats also where an intermediary factors in..the people she drank with have to go and inform the person she was to be reporting and plan what to do.

Why woulnt Kate be doing this with John? Hmm. Well, to my eye the relationship that is described as being like "man and wife" with early nights and Kate coming straight home to John regularly isnt like that upon their return to London. How many nights do Kate and John sleep in the same room since returning from hopping? If they had breakfast together Saturday morning after hawking his boots, why does the stub say Friday? Where was Kate all day? How did she get the money to drink? Why does she turn left when released from Bishopsgate instead of hunting down John? Why does John wait so long to look for her, or go to see about her in jail?

I believe the answers address the state of the union between John and Kate that Saturday. The money she would make from her blackmail scheme gives her independence from John.

As to the time, if she hadnt been arrested I would think a meeting time like Im envisioning would be suitably held at midnight. Maybe they learned of her incarceration and waited a while longer for her...maybe she could be seen at the spot where she is waiting from their lodgings, and when she shows, one of them goes out to meet her.

To curious....it seems to me that Kate wanted people to know that she was going to seek the reward, why should she tell anyone who that is and risk losing her playing card? Intermediaries in this case could simply be other men engaged in the same criminal activities as the killer may have been. Your idea that she meets with the killer himself is fine...but would she agree to meet a man she thinks may have killed other women like her in the dark of night? If she meets someone acting only as the killers representative she has less reason to fear them. But that intermediary could be the killer himself if she didnt know what the man looked like. Which wouldnt offer her much to offer the police.

To Lynn, the relationship Kate may have had to these individuals is the same as anyone might have within their own social circle. I have many friends that are successful, law abiding and gentle people. I also have friends in my past social circles, and on the periphery of current ones that have been involved in or exposed to criminal acts, some including violence. Thats the type of relationship I see Kate having had with this person. She knew him and knew his reputation.

If the man she intended to tell on was a dynamitard, why would Kate automatically have problem with that? Perhaps she became supportive of the Irish cause, again, as a result of her relationship to Conway. My suggestion of a dynamitard is only as an example of someone that breaks the law by causing panic and injury. There are lots of other possible titles for the fellow.

And A-Z states Lynn that it was Jane Kelly of Dorset Street on the pawn ticket, Mary Kelly of Fashion Street at Bishopsgate. Ive also read multiple "Jane" references in the press. The Daily News on the 3rd, the Freemans Journal, the Irish Times on the 3rd, and the Pall mall Gazette of the 10th all record the alias as Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street.

All the best,

Michael

[lynn cates]

Dorset

Hello Mike. Thanks. It might be helpful to get rid of a rough edge or two--that way one might see the big picture a bit clearer.

Do you have the contemporary sources for those names and locations? I have not seen the Dorset st ones, that I recall.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. It might be helpful to get rid of a rough edge or two--that way one might see the big picture a bit clearer.

Do you have the contemporary sources for those names and locations? I have not seen the Dorset st ones, that I recall.

Cheers.
LC

Hi again Lynn,

Youre right, I referred to some sources erroneously. Here are the quotes.

Freemans Journal, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The Press Association learns that the police think they have obtained a clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre square. She is supposed to be the person who as taken to the police station a short time ago for drunkenness. She then gave the name of Kelly, and said she lived at 6 Fashion street. One of the pawn tickets found near the body was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street."

The Daily News, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The woman to whom the constables refer was not charged with any offence, but when detained at the station she gave the name of Kelly, and said she was living at 6, Fashion-street. One of the two pawn tickets picked up near the scene of the murder on Sunday was to the effect that Jane Kelly, of 6, Dorset-street, had pawned a pair of boots on the 28th ult. with a shopkeeper in Church-street, Spitalfields, for 2s., 6d."

The Irish Times, Oct 3rd, 1888;

"The police think they have obtained a clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre square. She is supposed to be the person who as taken to the police station a short time ago for drunkenness. She then gave the name of Kelly, and said she lived at 6 Fashion street. One of the pawn tickets found near the body was made out to Jane Kelly, of 6 Dorset street."

Thats why Ive stated that Mary Jane Kelly, of 26 Dorset Street can almost be made completely from the names and addresses in her aliases that day.

Cheers mate,

Michael

[Supe]

Michael,

Just an observation, but clearly all three stories you quoted had a common source, the Press Association. It may not make any difference, but with a common source the three separate stories do not provide corroborastion.

Don.

[lynn cates]

tie in

Hello Mike. Thanks for the references.

OK, let's pursue this line for a bit. You are suggesting, what?

Something along the lines of a confusion between "MJK" and Kate? Then it's "MJK" who is really wanted?

I am wondering how that story could be made to tie in with Kate having information on someone?

Cheers.
LC