Did Jack only kill 3?

[Monty]

The same point Francis was drinking in the pub, or Martha, or Pearly, or Sadler, Mickeldy Joe, you....I.

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Lynn, I hesitated in naming a specific arm of the movement because as you point out, there are many factions that could contain men who did the actual dirty work. Not all were dynamiters, or the "fringe" element of the cause. But strong arms, not unlike a labor movement profile.

I dont see Kates murder as particularly challenging to ones soul, (in that many evil rough men in the area could have done the act), until the abdominal mutilations,.. and since its very possible that those acts took place after the throat cut and the facial mutilations, I can see your position on a spontaneous decision to mutilate the corpse.

With Kate there are tantalizing comments and rumors but little else tangible enough to hang ones hat on.

My best regards,
Michael

[lynn cates]

point

Hello Neil. Thanks.

Very well, then what was the point about Kate drinking with some people in a pub?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Hello Neil. OK, in the foregoing, you have Kate drinking with some chaps down in an Aldgate pub/s. That's fine. Kate gets drunk, taken to gaol, party breaks up. So far, so good.

But now the lad who is bent on mutilation later decides to pop round to Berner for a quick murder, then heads back to Aldgate hoping that his timing is right for a second helping--finding Kate released?

It feels quite strained.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

Who said anything about the murderer being in contact with Eddowes prior to her release from Bishopsgate?

Monty

[lynn cates]

strained

Hello Neil. OK, in the foregoing, you have Kate drinking with some chaps down in an Aldgate pub/s. That's fine. Kate gets drunk, taken to gaol, party breaks up. So far, so good.

But now the lad who is bent on mutilation later decides to pop round to Berner for a quick murder, then heads back to Aldgate hoping that his timing is right for a second helping--finding Kate released?

It feels quite strained.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Hello Neil. Thanks. I see, Sadler was for comparison. Very well.

With some patience and tweaking, I could follow up to Kate's release. After that, I have difficulties.

One thing becomes clear in your speculation (which, by the way, I delight to see)--there was NO "Double Event." And we can certainly agree there.

Cheers.
LC

How do you come to that conclusion?

Monty

[lynn cates]

Charlie Kane no more

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Sure, many have speculated that. But to get Kate that snoggered you would need 3-4 large glasses of gin at 4d per glass. That's a shilling or more. Now, if one accepts that Kate was soliciting in Aldgate on Saturday afternoon, she would need 3 or 4 clients--also at 4d per trick.

With all those clients, there should be some sign of it. But Brown examined her thighs for "secretions." None found. Nor did she have facilities for washing like Polly did.

Of course, if all else fails, those who believe that Kate was soliciting will advert to oral sex. Obviously, I don't buy any of it.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Although I do not like to speak for Mike, I think the suggestion turns round the one/s who bought Kate drinks.

Cheers.
LC

Ok thanks Lynn, I missed the speculation that "someone" may have bought her drink.
Did no-one speculate that she "may" have earned the money to buy her own drink?

Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Campbell is coming.

Hello Dave. Thanks for that.

Yes, Campbell's book is well worth the price. Wish he were a ripper student.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Cronin

Hi Lynn

Next time you want a job in my local Ice House, do let me know!

Seriously it's a fascinating period for Fenian, Counter-Fenian, Intra-Fenian and whatever else activity...You recommended Fenian Fire to me some while back, and whilst (like so many other books) I'm only part way through, there's much to savour there

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

politics

Hello Colin. I understand what you mean.

How familiar are you with the Triangle faction of Clan-na-Gael and Alexander Sullivan? The Cronin murder?

Are you familiar with the details of the Irish National Invincibles and the Phoenix Park murders?

I should be glad to provide a bibliography upon request. And after close research, I find such a scenario with MJK altogether plausible.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Mike. Thanks.

“I really have no happiness staked on any outcome of a review of the known facts with respect to Kate or the others...”

I have. I want an explanation—one which is consistent.

“ . . . but as I said at the outset, this is hypothetical and needs a good stretch out to see what happens.”

Wholeheartedly concur.

“One of the reasons I missed these exchanges is because I can’t think of another place where people who are generally intelligent and of sharp intellect and students of the Ripper crimes can exchange reasonable ideas to help solve the cases.”

Quite.

“A personal thing and a political thing could be intertwined Lynn...”

Indeed. I can see that with MJK.

“ . . . but I don’t see the personal touches on the murder.”

Very well.

“ For instance, if it’s personal and therefore from passion of some sort, then why take any organ let alone a kidney?”

Well, the uterus would ape Annie’s slaying. Kidney? Can’t say at this stage.

“ Why not rage wounds?”

No. This seems to me cold and calculated.

“ Is someone close to her and usually unfamiliar with violence of that nature suddenly on-the spot going to think of replicating a Ripper act as a decoy?”

Yes.

“ I think Mary Kelly has "personal", if you will, damage though.”

Confere supra.

“Let’s say Kate knows some bad people. My feeling is Irish self rule terrorists, but that’s not a requirement here.”

OK, because it’s a bit vague. I eschew “Fenian” because I prefer the nuances here. I have studied these blokes closely and know whom is capable of what—and not.

“She feels that one or more may be involved in these killings and she isn’t sure whether it’s because the women were informants or the like, or because these men were simply evil.”

So she thinks she understands who is killing in WC? OK, but when did she arrive at the view? Just after her return to London?

“In her mind she has 2 goals...1 is to stop the killings because she is exactly like the women being murdered, and 2 is to make a p or 2 while doing that. Being a street wise gal she decides the right play is to let the culprits cough up more dosh than the reward offered at the time, so she lets it be known locally that she intends to name someone to the cops.’

Which reward is that, Mike? Was it a private one?

“ A meeting takes place on behalf of this unknown entity, and the bad guys decide she knows too much. So they agree to her terms, and set a meeting which they wait patiently for her to arrive at. Because that meeting is in their interest, not hers.”

OK. But my problem is that no one at the pub came forward with details on Kate.

“She meets her contact late....he surprises her and she is startled and puts her hand on his chest, apologizing for her delay and thanking him for waiting for her. They proceed into the square, and the man or men that kill her are there.”

I like that body English, but she is intent on Mitre Square—in fact, she is like a moth drawn to the flame. Was there to be a meeting? When? Did not gaol throw off the timing?

“You know Lynn how much money was changing hands at that time...be it within the terrorist organizations, from Police to terrorist double agents, from the crown to finance undercover work...and with the Parnell Commission ongoing and the risk of exposure people must have gone to some lengths to protect their secrets and identities.”

OK, no need to convince me here. I could provide a litany. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hi.
In the back of my mind , I have often believed a connection between Eddowes and Mary Kelly ,if only for the dreadful mutilation including facial.. on poor Kate.
The fact that she lived with a man called Kelly could have a connection with Mary [Millers court] as McCarthy informed the press that Mary Jane, some months back had come to live with a man called Kelly, so one wonders exactly when 'he' became aware of the name Barnett?
question.
Was Eddowes killed by mistake?
Again in the realms of speculation, however it is possible that all the killer knew was, the woman he was after, lived with a man called Kelly, and used the name Mary Jane.
I always have remembered the nun, from Barlow and Watts series in the early 1970s, albeit we have to be a bit cautious..
Quote..
''If it was not for the Kelly woman , none of the murders would have happened''.
This allegedly came from a conversation, that this nun heard from a elderly sister in around 1915..who was in the area in 1888.
I love a conspiracy ...
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

Some interesting thoughts on the possibility of mistaken identity. Wasn't Mary Anne Kelly the name of John Kelly's wife though? In which case, isn't it just Kate Eddowes havng a joke at her expense?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

I don't see why Fenians would spend up to two hours slicing MJK to pieces with a sharp knife. I'm not naif enough to believe that such people don't kill, but not in that way. The one thing I'm pretty confident the MJK murder wasn't is a politically-motivated hit. To me, it's not a convincing scenario.

Regards, Bridewell

[lynn cates]

comparison

Hello Neil. Thanks. I see, Sadler was for comparison. Very well.

With some patience and tweaking, I could follow up to Kate's release. After that, I have difficulties.

One thing becomes clear in your speculation (which, by the way, I delight to see)--there was NO "Double Event." And we can certainly agree there.

Cheers.
LC