Did Jack only kill 3?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello (again) Mike. Would you be happy if Kate's demise were a personal thing, and not associated with any political situation?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I really have no happiness staked on any outcome of a review of the known facts with respect to Kate or the others......but as I said at the outset, this is hypothetical and needs a good stretch out to see what happens. One of the reasons I missed these exchanges is because I cant think of another place where people who are generally intelligent and of sharp intellect and students of the Ripper crimes can exchange reasonable ideas to help solve the cases.

A personal thing and a political thing could be intertwined Lynn...but I dont see the personal touches on the murder. For instance, if its personal and therefore from passion of some sort, then why take any organ let alone a kidney? Why not rage wounds? Is someone close to her and usually unfamiliar with violence of that nature suddenly on-the spot going to think of replicating a Ripper act as a decoy? I think Mary Kelly has "personal", if you will, damage though.

Lets say Kate knows some bad people. My feeling is Irish self rule terrorists, but thats not a requirement here. She feels that one or more may be involved in these killings and she isnt sure whether its because the women were informants or the like, or because these men were simply evil.

In her mind she has 2 goals...1 is to stop the killings because she is exactly like the women being murdered, and 2 is to make a p or 2 while doing that. Being a street wise gal she decides the right play is to let the culprits cough up more dosh than the reward offered at the time, so she lets it be known locally that she intends to name someone to the cops. A meeting takes place on behalf of this unknown entity, and the bad guys decide she knows too much. So they agree to her terms, and set a meeting which they wait patiently for her to arrive at. Because that meeting is in their interest, not hers.

She meets her contact late....he surprises her and she is startled and puts her hand on his chest, apologizing for her delay and thanking him for waiting for her. They proceed into the square, and the man or men that kill her are there.

You know Lynn how much money was changing hands at that time...be it within the terrorist organizations, from Police to terrorist double agents, from the crown to finance undercover work...and with the Parnell Commission ongoing and the risk of exposure people must have gone to some lengths to protect their secrets and identities.

All the best,
Michael

[Monty]

Lynn,

I'm not suggesting Sadler did for Kate. I am drawing a comparison.

Sadler did what many men did when on their own and flushed with money during that period, headed off for a good time. Hits a pub and comes across a friendly face, Francis Coles

Now I see a similar situation with Eddowes. Firstly I don't think John Kelly was that naïve. I'm confident he knew where Eddowes went to get money and it wasn't Bermondsey. Yet whilst aware, he may not have liked it one bit, so tucked himself away.

Eddowes went to her hunting ground, met up with a fellow or fellows al a Tabram, Poll or later Coles. She keeps them company, enjoys their money (may even suggest to him he should only treat her- Coles did that with Sadler). However, lil too much drink. Staggers out with whoever, collapses near a shutter, causes a scene, local Bobby comes along and it all goes tits up for the chap. Drops Eddowes like a stone and let's her be carted off. Maybe one of her cronies see this and relays the info to Kelly, who then know full well where she is and what has gone down.

Meanwhile Eddowes spends some time in the cell, gets released, realises she still needs to get some money, so heads to a similar spot Stride headed to, a club. Loiters outside there hoping to pick up a possible punter leaving the club and Bob is your Uncle. Except this Uncle Bob has a huge knife.

Quite simple, no conviluted scenario, straightforward and logical.

Done

Monty

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Neil. Thanks.

After I read your earlier post I began thinking. Yes, he went pub crawling with Frances. And I can see the same with Kate--given, of course, John's approval. (This, by the way, would be a good explanation for John's lies at inquest.)

Now, you are the Mitre Square expert. There were three pubs near where Kate was found by PC Robinson--the Bull Inn was the closest? Very well--they tried all three.

But the question would be this. What did Sadler seek? Sex? (Oops, pardon the alliteration.) Sounds right. So when do they quit drinking and get down to business? Would Tom just let her get snoggered and then put in gaol?

But let's say OK, this is how it happened. Then 2 questions arise:

1. Where was Sadler between 8.30 and 1.30? What were his plans?

2. Why did Kate make a bee line from Bishopsgate Station back towards Mitre Square?

Now, if you are suggesting some plan on John and Kate's part to get him into Mitre Square and roll him, that would answer many questions. But I'm not sure why it went so badly wrong.

Moreover, I'm at a loss about the mutilation and organ removal. And why did Kate get it so much worse than Frances?

Finally, did I read his discharge log properly? Can Sadler be placed in London at this time?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

I am very serious Lynn,

Look at Sadler and what he did as soon as he left the Fez with his pockets full.

Monty

[lynn cates]

saddled with . . .

Hello Neil. Thanks.

Sadler? Are you serious? I think he killed Coles, but Kate?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lust mord

Hello Mac. No great mystery? Umm? (heh-heh)

At any rate, you see a disorganised chap bent on killing? Then how did he so deftly avoid detection--especially at Mitre Square?

The standard notion here is that he had this uncontrollable lust to kill after his frustration at Dutfield's.

Very well.

Then he left and found himself at Mitre Square. Blind rage.

Alright.

Then he killed and mutilated just between 2 beats.

How?

Well, he knew the beats and had been staking out the place.

But whither the frenzy and lust driving him blindly away from Dutfield's?

Forgive me, reading too much Gavin Bromley.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Any suggestions Lynn?

Look to Sadler.

Monty

[lynn cates]

flight of fancy

Hello Neil. Actually, I have no problem with ANY flight of fancy, PROVIDED a consistent theory comes from it.

Of course, most of those "theories" dash themselves against the rocks of critical scrutiny. Those that don't deserve a closer look--additional research.

I await a good theory about Kate--something to tie up the loose ends. Don't see a political situation.

Any suggestions? I'm open.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not sure there are many serial killers out there targetting people whom they know, or looking for one particular individual and killing a few others by mistake. I mean, if you know her then you probably know where to find her!

The more I read about the murders the more I think that this person had absolutely no idea what he was doing except stabbing, ripping, cutting, pulling etc. I think Nichols or Chapman was stabbed twice in the vagina; Kelly is simply carved up with bits strewn around; Eddowes has her cheeks nicked in an apparent attempt to cut her nose off.

I really don't think he had any plan whatsoever beyond finding a particpant, rendering her unconscience and hacking away. Wouldn't surprise me in the event he was disturbed in all 4 murders prior to Kelly.

No conspiracy; no great mystery. Just some fella out of his mind acting on instinct.

[Monty]

And conversely some will not see the forest for the trees.

In case youve not noticed Monty none of the old dogma has solved a single Canonical crime. So trying out other options for size is not only wise, its almost essential to do so.

We have existing statements and quotes and the odd, yes odd, co-incidental usage by Kate of almost the entirety of Mary Kellys name and address in her 2 last aliases. They share Irish connections, Kates through relationships.

The idea that there was some connection between the 2, particularly since Dorset Street itself plays quite prominently in the Ripper tales, isnt far fetched. Just unproven.

Regards,
Michael

Right, so we create new bull$hit which will drag the case forward?

Silly me, I thought the way I work, good ol fashioned researching, is the correct course.

Then I await this with great excitement.

Monty

[lynn cates]

What meaning of this?

Hello Richard. Yes, the drink phenomenon has me baffled too. Who's buying? Surely not an unfortunate. And surely not Kate--Dr. Brown examined her thighs for secretions, jargon for "inspected for semen traces from inter-femoral intercourse." Nothing.

To put it in the words of Inspector Sidney Wang, "Is confusing."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

non political

Hello (again) Mike. Would you be happy if Kate's demise were a personal thing, and not associated with any political situation?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello Mike. Thanks. I can find some reasons to cause me to speculate on "MJK" as an informant. But, so far, no reason to include Kate.

Of course, I am:

1. Open to suggestion.

2. Willing to listen to a well thought out scenario and critique it impartially.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

The idea that there was some connection between the 2, particularly since Dorset Street itself plays quite prominently in the Ripper tales, isnt far fetched. Just unproven. [My emphasis.]

I don't think that argument would wash very well in academic circles!!

Well, you could justify almost any old theory by saying that, and I have read posts on Casebook by some who undoubtedly would!!

On the other hand, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your view. I don't think the old dogma (as you call them) has got us very far. We do need to question everything.

I need to update myself on the latest Fenian position viz a viz JtR (I've been absent from the site for a few months).

Cordially

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The fact is, somehow Kate found the money to get rather drunk, either by prostituting herself [ which apparently was not usual] or was plied with drink by someone with intentions.
I like the idea, that she was plied with drink to find out if she was a ''threat'' to someone, whether or not that was Fenian related, we cannot know.
Maybe she got arrested before she could be taken to a suitable place to silence, and her killer simply kept a careful watch on Bishopsgate nick, until she was released.
That might explain why she apparently turned the wrong way after leaving the exit door..Did she see a familiar face close by?
All of this seems like a 'B movie plot, but she either got money from an afternoon punter, and immediately drank it away , or someone put his hand in his pocket , out of the kindness of their heart, and got her sloshed...
All very baffling..
Regards Richard.