Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[Herlock Sholmes]

What are you trying to prove Jon? Suppose all ten were prostitutes ,and it doesn't state that,does it prove all unfortunates were prostitutes?
Now take the case of Ellen Fisher,daughter of John and Sarah Fisher, of the village of Chisledon,in Wiltshire,born around 1840.She was an unfortunate,She was not a prostituute,nor did she turn to prostitution on becoming an unfortunate.Neither did her two daughters,and there were thousands of like cases to hers in England.Yes,Ellen Fisher was a real person,I can prove it.

Harry, I’ll ask again (although it’s something else that you’ll ignore.)

Can you tell us we’re you got your previous information about ‘prostitutes’ and ‘unfortunates’ from Harry? You used this to show a discrepancy between the two. I say, and others agree, that you got these from 2 separate sources and have put them together, which clearly renders your point invalid. When you make a point using figures it’s normal practice to show where you took those figures from so that everyone can evaluate them fairly. I asked you to provide this information but so far you have declined to do so. Taking x amount of prostitutes from one list and x amount of Unfortunates from another (where they clearly mean the same thing) and pointing out a discrepancy leads to an obviously false conclusion.

Again, experience doesn’t give me high hopes that you’ll produce this information.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So lets take your claim Herlock,that prostitute and unfortunate was the same thing,and all unfortuntes took money in exchange for sex,because that is what you are implying.First tell me what was meant by being an unfortunate.We know what was meant by being a prostitute.What of the men and children who were classed as unfortunates.Were they prostitutes too?

Ok Harry, you claim that the term ‘an Unfortunate’ doesn’t specifically mean prostitute but can also mean someone down on their luck? Well it goes without saying that there were men and children that were also down on their luck. I produced numerous examples from Old Bailey testimonies where women were named, by themselves and by others, as Unfortunates and every single one of them clearly meant prostitute and in the book posted by Debra the term Unfortunate clearly meant prostitute. The odds of that being some kind of fluke is vanishingly small. So I challenge you -

Produce an example of a man being called ‘an Unfortunate.’

You have a whole internet full of information to choose from so, if you are correct, you should have absolutely no problem producing an example or two. And just to be clear Harry, before you try this trick, and I shouldn’t need to say this but past experience tells me that I do, I am not talking about simply using the word unfortunate. So “I was just unfortunate that I lost my job and so couldn’t pay my rent’ doesn’t count. Neither does ‘it was unfortunate that I looked like the man seen leaving the scene of the crime,” or “my circumstances were unfortunate.”

Im talking about a man saying “I am an Unfortunate’ or someone one saying ‘he is an Unfortunate.’ Full stop. Unfortunate used as a noun.

My predictions are that either a) you will completely ignore this post, or b) you will do exactly what I said doesn’t count and produce an inappropriate example.

I have to admit that my hopes aren’t high.

[harry]

What are you trying to prove Jon? Suppose all ten were prostitutes ,and it doesn't state that,does it prove all unfortunates were prostitutes?
Now take the case of Ellen Fisher,daughter of John and Sarah Fisher, of the village of Chisledon,in Wiltshire,born around 1840.She was an unfortunate,She was not a prostituute,nor did she turn to prostitution on becoming an unfortunate.Neither did her two daughters,and there were thousands of like cases to hers in England.Yes,Ellen Fisher was a real person,I can prove it.

[Wickerman]

Shields Daily Gazette, 10 Sept. 1897.

[Wickerman]

The term "unfortunate" was adopted by the upper classes & most of the press to describe anyone who earned their living by immoral means off the streets, typically by selling their bodies, mostly females of all ages, or young male boys.

[harry]

So lets take your claim Herlock,that prostitute and unfortunate was the same thing,and all unfortuntes took money in exchange for sex,because that is what you are implying.First tell me what was meant by being an unfortunate.We know what was meant by being a prostitute.What of the men and children who were classed as unfortunates.Were they prostitutes too?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was just re-reading this book again today after 3 days without full internet access.
The Rev Merrick included a lot of statistics and descriptions of 'unfortunates' in his work.
One of the things that leapt out at me that I have never noticed before was Merrick's description of the rapid decline in appearance and wealth of those entering the profession compared to those a few months down the line, in terms of fine clothing obtained on loan when setting out.

I’ve just read through this interesting little book Debra. There were some interesting points such as the East End not being proportionately any worse than other areas in regard to crime. It’s was also worth noting that the women spoken to didn’t blame alcohol for their circumstances, but cited it as the only only way of coping with the life that their circumstances forced them into. An effect rather than a cause. I also wonder, when the Reverend found it difficult to understand why these women didn’t like homes and refuges for ‘fallen women’ if these women were simply too respectful or polite to tell him that that didn’t like being treated as morally defected or that they didn’t want to be pummelled with religion however well meaning it might have been?

What stood out the most of course for me, in light of recent debates, is that the term Unfortunate was clearly used solely as a euphemism for prostitute. A fact that shouldn’t be denied.

[Debra A]

I was just re-reading this book again today after 3 days without full internet access.
The Rev Merrick included a lot of statistics and descriptions of 'unfortunates' in his work.
One of the things that leapt out at me that I have never noticed before was Merrick's description of the rapid decline in appearance and wealth of those entering the profession compared to those a few months down the line, in terms of fine clothing obtained on loan when setting out.

[Debra A]

And right under my nose all this time-Ms Demay, sentenced to 18mos. at Millbank in 1889!

[Debra A]

I know the feeling x

bapsbook rules.

[Rob Clack]

If only! Even there a certain opinion is being promoted! Retirement I think.

I know the feeling x

[Debra A]

Knickers

If only! Even there a certain opinion is being promoted! Retirement I think.

[Rob Clack]

There you go, still useful for some things.

Knickers

[Debra A]

There you go, still useful for some things.

[tnb]

Indeed it does, Debs - good find!