Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[harry]

By the way Herlock,everyone on the planet? Does that include Rubenhold and her supporters?

[harry]

The term (Unfortunate) meant prostitute and nothing else,Herlock claims.I have shown in the example I posted(Previous post),that it does mean something else.Henry Mcmahon was an Unfortunate.It says so in the 'Gleaner' newspaper.I will in good time,prove it.In the meantime,Herlockcan post a reference to his claim that Unfortunate meant prostitute and nothing else,If he is telling the truth'.I claim he is making it up.
Here is a little tip if posters aren't already wise to it.Don't copy/cut and paste,use the prt sc function.The button can be found just above the backspace on a key board.Hold down the windows sign at the bottom,press that button and what is on screen will be saved to your computer,most likely in the pictures folder.
Thanks Baron.
Happy Christmas

[bolo]

Anyway, I wish a Merry Christmas to you and everyone else involved in the thread. It's been another eye-opener.

Indeed. I also wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year, may all your dreams come true.

[rjpalmer]

Anyway, I wish a Merry Christmas to you and everyone else involved in the thread. It's been another eye-opener.

Merry Christmas.

[Debra A]

Hi Simon,
The Star on 1, October 1888.
"She was a familiar figure at the Thames Police-court, where she occasionally fell down in the dock in one of the epileptic fits to which she was subject. She sometimes went in the name of Fitzgerald, and was known, in the expressive nomenclature of her frail sisterhood as "Epileptic Annie," or "Long Liz."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881001.html

Merry Christmas to you and yours,

JM

"Epileptic Annie"
Sounds suspiciously like "hippy lip Annie" to me.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you.

You win some, you lose some.

"Epileptic Annie," eh? Some of her customers must have thought the earth was moving.

A safe, warm Christmas to you and yours.

Simon

[jmenges]

Hi Simon,
The Star on 1, October 1888.
"She was a familiar figure at the Thames Police-court, where she occasionally fell down in the dock in one of the epileptic fits to which she was subject. She sometimes went in the name of Fitzgerald, and was known, in the expressive nomenclature of her frail sisterhood as "Epileptic Annie," or "Long Liz."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881001.html

Merry Christmas to you and yours,

JM

[Simon Wood]

Nowhere have I seen the C5 referred to as members of The Frail Sisterhood.

A safe, warm Christmas to everyone.

Simon.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

I realize this is splitting-hairs, but might one argue that Minnie Groser is being slightly disingenuous by referring to herself as an 'unfortunate'? She clearly is admitting that she is a prostitute, so you are 100% correct, but if the connotations of 'unfortunate' are softer and less accusatory than the starker word 'prostitute,' one might argue that she's also playing for 'sympathy'--a bit like 'crying poverty' or playing the 'victim' card. But perhaps I'm taking it too far and am looking for subtleties that aren't there.

I've seen people argue over the term 'child prostitute' during the current Ghislaine Maxwell trial. Part of the problem is that some people seem to view the word prostitute as strictly clinical--those who conduct a sexual transaction for financial gain. They insist that there is no moral judgment connected to it. Others disagree. and insist that the term implies a conscious, deliberate choice, and maybe even a choice that is harmful to society. Thus, this second group argues there can be no such thing as a 'child prostitute' because a child cannot give consent. There are only child rape victims.

These are difficult things to discuss, because, beyond the obvious, they can turn into political discussions or even religious discussions rather easily, and we see Mr. M at one extreme, and Ms. R at the other, when most of us are scrambling around somewhere in between.

Well, yes, RJ. But isn't that the whole point of a euphemism?
I thought that was the discussion I had been involved in-whether or not the term 'unfortunate' was a euphemism for 'prostitute'-while simultaneously defending myself against the insinuation that I am branding all women of the pauper class a prostitute by saying that, because someone refuses to accept 'unfortunate' and not 'pauper' was a euphemism for prostitute!

As far as Minnie Groser goes, she was telling Grandy himself (when he was allowed to cross examine her as a witness against him in the CCcourt) that she had the same occupation as his wife Demay, when she described herself as an unfortunate - and with Sergeant James declaring "Demay has been getting her living as a prostitute" in the same trial, I don't think anyone was fooled

Anyway, I wish a Merry Christmas to you and everyone else involved in the thread. It's been another eye-opener.

[Debra A]

I'm not suggesting they weren't working as unfortunates, but would they have been listed as such if they were married and living with their husband?

As married women often didn't work outside the house there would be no need for a married woman who engaged in prostitution to declare the fact on a census would there? But in this newspaper clipping below we can see a woman thought to be engaged in prostitution and a point made of the fact she is married but still an unfortunate.
Perhaps there's no one, Ripperologist or historian who isn't paddling in the shallow end of this subject. I would attempt a dive in the deeper water but I'd probably belly flop. And I've just discovered something really intriguing that I need to follow up urgently.

A shocking tragedy was discovered yesterday morning at Newcastle-on-Tyne, on the Town Moor, an extensive area of grass land at the north end of the site. Shortly after 4 o'clock the body of Annie Harding aged 32, a married woman, but an unfortunate, was found by a man who was taking his cows to pasture. Her throat was cut in such a way that death must have been almost instantaneous and she had evidently been dead several hours. She was seen on Saturday night going towards the Town Moor with a man. The police have no clue to the murderer.
July 2, 1894 Exeter and Plymouth Gazette

[rjpalmer]

Hi Debs,

I realize this is splitting-hairs, but might one argue that Minnie Groser is being slightly disingenuous by referring to herself as an 'unfortunate'? She clearly is admitting that she is a prostitute, so you are 100% correct, but if the connotations of 'unfortunate' are softer and less accusatory than the starker word 'prostitute,' one might argue that she's also playing for 'sympathy'--a bit like 'crying poverty' or playing the 'victim' card. But perhaps I'm taking it too far and am looking for subtleties that aren't there.

I've seen people argue over the term 'child prostitute' during the current Ghislaine Maxwell trial. Part of the problem is that some people seem to view the word prostitute as strictly clinical--those who conduct a sexual transaction for financial gain. They insist that there is no moral judgment connected to it. Others disagree. and insist that the term implies a conscious, deliberate choice, and maybe even a choice that is harmful to society. Thus, this second group argues there can be no such thing as a 'child prostitute' because a child cannot give consent. There are only child rape victims.

These are difficult things to discuss, because, beyond the obvious, they can turn into political discussions or even religious discussions rather easily, and we see Mr. M at one extreme, and Ms. R at the other, when most of us are scrambling around somewhere in between.

[Debra A]

Well this is a case I have been familiar with for many years so was able to recall the use of the term unfortunate applied to women of a different class than the homeless, destitute women of Whitechapel yet also refer to prostitution. I had this in mind when I posted " It wasn't a term only applied to a woman of the poorer class or a homeless destitute woman." that RJ picked me up on.

In fact I posted about Amelia Demay being sent to Millbank in 1889 in post #39, the last post in this thread in 2013 in response to people telling me Millbank was shut in 1886 and not accepting prisoners, so Merrick couldn't have been right about any of the victims being there shortly before their murders (before I opened it back up again last week to mention Merrick's ideas about 'unfortunates' with post #40)
So, it's probably a good place for me to step out again.

[Debra A]

Thanks for that Debra

Well this is a case I have been familiar with for many years so was able to recall the use of the term unfortunate applied to women of a different class than the homeless, destitute women of Whitechapel yet also refer to prostitution. I had this in mind when I posted " It wasn't a term only applied to a woman of the poorer class or a homeless destitute woman." that RJ picked me up on.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I forgot to add (for those not familiar with Grande, i.e. Grandy in the above clip cross examining a witness in court) that Amelia Demay, Grande's mistress who passed as his wife was reported in 1889 to have been several times charged with being a disorderly woman. I also made a note in the past that Demay's name was on the door at the Portland Street residence according to one source, a residence described as a brothel, but I don't have that source anymore.

In 1887 Grandy was fined for assaulting Henrietta Pasquier (later described in 1889 as an assault on a prostitute South Wales Daily News - Saturday 25 May 1889)
in a complicated case. Pasquier was reported as being "an unfortunte" Reynolds's Newspaper - Sunday 27 March 1887 and also by the Magistrate, Mr Newton as "an orderly but unfortunate young woman, who had never been charged in this court with accosting gentlemen or offending in any manner. ."
Newton ordered Sgt William James to investigate Grande and in a later statement in court a few days later concluded that " Mr Newton-Addressing the accused , said it was intolerable that the Court should be pestered with the complaints of such women and their male companions. The prisoner was evidently living upon the earnings of one of these women, and he was an impertinent fellow to write to the Commissioners of Police and even to the Home Secretary complaining of their conduct when he was receiving money from them."

Thanks for that Debra

[Debra A]

Cross-examined by Grandy. I am not married—I call myself Mrs. Brown, it looks better—I am German—Brown is a nickname, my real name is Minnie Groser—I have been in England seven years—I have been doing what your wife did for a living—I am an unfortunate; I did the same before I came to England—I am twenty-five years old

I forgot to add (for those not familiar with Grande, i.e. Grandy in the above clip cross examining the witness in court) that Amelia Demay, Grande's mistress who passed as his wife was reported in 1889 to have been several times charged with being a disorderly woman. I also made a note in the past that Demay's name was on the door at the Portland Street residence according to one source, a residence described as a brothel, but I don't have that source anymore.

In 1887 Grandy was fined for assaulting Henrietta Pasquier (later described in 1889 as an assault on a prostitute South Wales Daily News - Saturday 25 May 1889)
in a complicated case. Pasquier was reported as being "an unfortunte" Reynolds's Newspaper - Sunday 27 March 1887 and also by the Magistrate, Mr Newton as "an orderly but unfortunate young woman, who had never been charged in this court with accosting gentlemen or offending in any manner. ."

Newton ordered Sgt William James to investigate Grande and in a later statement in court a few days made this conclusion " Mr Newton-Addressing the accused , said it was intolerable that the Court should be pestered with the complaints of such women and their male companions. The prisoner was evidently living upon the earnings of one of these women, and he was an impertinent fellow to write to the Commissioners of Police and even to the Home Secretary complaining of their conduct when he was receiving money from them." London Evening Standard - Wednesday 30 March 1887