Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell

[Wickerman]

....... All either side can do is lay out the facts as best they can and leave it up to the good folk here to decide who is right...

I'd take issue with that Paul.
I don't view Casebook members as a Jury, to my mind it makes no difference what a majority believe, that still doesn't change what is right from what is wrong.
What Harry is asserting in my view is that the term "Unfortunate" can mean "down on their luck". Well, of course it can, but he is ignoring the context of the sentence. Harry is also intentionally or otherwise confusing an Adjective with a Noun.
When the context requires a noun, you can't change it to an adjective, which he is trying to do.
It must be admitted that the usage in some cases is ambiguous, it could be either an adjective or noun, but where the context requires the noun, which is in the majority of cases in the Whitechapel murder investigations, then it must be accepted, and move on.

[PaulB]

True enough Paul,

Time to give up expecting him to abide by the usual rules of debate and discussion. The evidence is there for all to see. It’s a sad state of affairs though but what can you do? I’m just glad that everyone doesn’t adopt the same tactic or any fair discussion on any topic would be impossible. How can anyone want to maintain a discussion with someone who simply makes things up to defend an argument at any cost? Disappointing to say the least.

Very disappointing, but you can only hit your head against a brick wall for so long. Harry probably has a hurting head too. All either side can do is lay out the facts as best they can and leave it up to the good folk here to decide who is right. It is accepted that an unfortunate was a prostitute, and you and others have laid out supporting evidence. You cannot be required to do more. If Harry wants to dispute the accepted facts, then the ball is very firmly in his court to provide solid evidence and argument that the accepted facts are wrong. As far as I am aware, he has not done that. Until he does, there is no mileage to be gained by pursuing this. In fairness to Harry, he could be right, but the ball is in his court and it's up to him to prove it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock,
I hate to say this, but we have experience of debating with Harry and we know that it's a recipe for increasing frustration and a reason to invest in a personal defibrillator. I don't think you are going to force him to make any admissions, do you? And is it important to do so? Everybody and their mother knows that an unfortunate meant a prostitute, so what does it matter if a handful of people think otherwise. Harry isn't a Hallie Rubenhold misleading an army of followers, so it doesn't really matter what he thinks. And in fairness to Harry, the onus is on him to support his argument with evidence and if he does that then we're going to suffocate in the egg on our faces. It remains to be seen if he can prove his point. If he doesn't...

True enough Paul,

Time to give up expecting him to abide by the usual rules of debate and discussion. The evidence is there for all to see. It’s a sad state of affairs though but what can you do? I’m just glad that everyone doesn’t adopt the same tactic or any fair discussion on any topic would be impossible. How can anyone want to maintain a discussion with someone who simply makes things up to defend an argument at any cost? Disappointing to say the least.

[PaulB]

Harry, are you aware of the difference between and adjective and a noun because the evidence suggests that you don’t?

”unfortunate’ as an adjective can be used in many circumstances. “She was an unfortunate person,” “ he was unfortunate to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time,’ “ her circumstances were very unfortunate,” being just three examples. No one is denying this obvious fact.

But “she was An Unfortunate.” With it being used as noun, was used solely to mean prostitute. Every single example that we find concurs with this.

So, on the subject of your great grandmother, can you show us where she was incorrectly labelled as ‘An Unfortunate,’ ie as a noun? Please, please don’t keep using the word as an adjective because everyone reading can see that this isn’t honest.

Herlock,
I hate to say this, but we have experience of debating with Harry and we know that it's a recipe for increasing frustration and a reason to invest in a personal defibrillator. I don't think you are going to force him to make any admissions, do you? And is it important to do so? Everybody and their mother knows that an unfortunate meant a prostitute, so what does it matter if a handful of people think otherwise. Harry isn't a Hallie Rubenhold misleading an army of followers, so it doesn't really matter what he thinks. And in fairness to Harry, the onus is on him to support his argument with evidence and if he does that then we're going to suffocate in the egg on our faces. It remains to be seen if he can prove his point. If he doesn't...

[PaulB]

There are lots of words that have multiple meanings, but the context makes the meaning clear. That an unfortunate was a common euphemism for a prostitute has been accepted for decades, maybe well over a century, so anyone who challenges that accepted interpretation needs to produce really solid evidence. Has anyone got an unambiguous example of an unfortunate being used to describe a woman in a context where it did not mean prostitute? Obviously, "unfortunate" had the meaning of someone who had suffered a misfortune, but that meaning should be clear from the context. Similarly, if "unfortunate" was commonly applied as a descriptive term to men and children, it should be possible to find lots of examples in the wealth of digitised newspapers.

It is terrific when someone challenges accepted facts. Revising what we believe to be true opens up new research doors. We know that unfortunate meant prostitute, just like we know that the moon is a big lump of rock; if someone wants to claim that the moon is cream cheese, they must have pretty good evidence if they expect to be taken seriously. Ditto the meaning of unfortunate. There's no point in pursuing this matter without that evidence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Harry, are you aware of the difference between and adjective and a noun because the evidence suggests that you don’t?

”unfortunate’ as an adjective can be used in many circumstances. “She was an unfortunate person,” “ he was unfortunate to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time,’ “ her circumstances were very unfortunate,” being just three examples. No one is denying this obvious fact.

But “she was An Unfortunate.” With it being used as noun, was used solely to mean prostitute. Every single example that we find concurs with this.

So, on the subject of your great grandmother, can you show us where she was incorrectly labelled as ‘An Unfortunate,’ ie as a noun? Please, please don’t keep using the word as an adjective because everyone reading can see that this isn’t honest.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can you Herlock provide documentary evidence that the word prostitute,not the meaning,the word,was ever used in an official document to describe Nichols.

Trevor has already stated that it is mentioned in the records. If you think that Trevor is lying about this then I suggest that you take that up with him Harry. I haven’t been to see the records. Trevor has.

I have reponded to all your claims,I have given you names of persons and places that can identify my claims.Unfortunate was a description,and a common one as Jon points out,that was given to men,women and children.Unlike you he does not restrict the meaning to prostitute,and he is correct in doing so.One such description alluding to men was destitute.Another was homeless.Prove it,sure ,read any book on the Riper and you will find the word 'Unfortunate'and the persons so described.Read any newspaper of that time,you will read the same word and description.Will you now concede the pont? I doubt it.That's no waffle Herlock,that's a challenge.I can prove that the circumstances alluding to Ellen Fisher was that needed to classify her as 'Unfortunate'.If Debra knows the history of Ellen Fisher up untill the time of her death,I would sooner she give you the details,then I cannot be accused of misleading or manufacturing information.If she will not or cannot,then come to me for the proof.That answers everything you have asked.

It clearly avoids answering every single point. Harry do you genuinely think that posters on here can’t read and understand the tricks that you’re employing?

Mine isn't just a name on a document Jon.I have researched my family history.My grandmother and my lives overlapped by some years,so some information I received direct from her.So you have had my honest answer.

More obfuscation. Please stop conflating the word ‘unfortunate’ as used in any conversation with the phrase ‘An Unfortunate,’ they are not the same thing.

Harry, simply saying that you have responded when you clearly haven’t doesn’t cut it with anyone. I’ve listed the issues and you continue to talk about other things. So stop waffling and respond. Directly and clearly to the points.

………

First point - you claimed to have seen records where the terms ‘Prostitute’ and ‘Unfortunate’ were both used. You stated that they showed different numbers proving, in your mind, that ‘Prostitute’ and ‘Unfortunate’ were two different things.

Both myself and Debra have asked you to produce this. You have not done this. And we know why don’t we? Because they were from two separate lists which you have manipulated to try and prove a point.

If you wish to show that you haven’t used manipulation then produce a list where ‘Prostitute’ and ‘Unfortunate’ are both listed. It’s the simplest of requests Harry. So why won’t you?


Second Point - I have produced around 20 examples, taken at random from 2 years at The Old Bailey, where the term ‘Unfortunate’ meant prostitute every single time. I’ve produced a definition from a dictionary of Victorian slang which lists ‘Unfortunate’ as meaning prostitute and Debra has pointed out that she’s seen it numerous times in Court and Inquest proceedings.

You persist in saying that being ‘An Unfortunate’ could mean something else, like ‘down on her luck’ or ‘in difficult circumstances.’ So I made a very simple challenge Harry.

Anyone can be ‘down on their luck’ or ‘in difficult circumstances,’ so all that you have to do is produce one example, just one Harry, of a man being described as ‘An Unfortunate.’


…..


So, to be clear to all that you have responded, type ‘First point’ then your response, then type ‘Second Point’ then your response.

I’d be willing to bet a significant amount that you will not respond to these points. You’ll probably make another misleading post saying that you’ve responded. If you had spend as much time and effort in responding to actual questions than you have for avoiding them Harry this conversation would have been over. And this is without mentioning when you called me a liar then challenged me to provide info, which I then did, and you ignored it.

You are running out of opportunities to show yourself in a better light Harry.

[harry]

Can you Herlock provide documentary evidence that the word prostitute,not the meaning,the word,was ever used in an official document to describe Nichols.
I have reponded to all your claims,I have given you names of persons and places that can identify my claims.Unfortunate was a description,and a common one as Jon points out,that was given to men,women and children.Unlike you he does not restrict the meaning to prostitute,and he is correct in doing so.One such description alluding to men was destitute.Another was homeless.Prove it,sure ,read any book on the Riper and you will find the word 'Unfortunate'and the persons so described.Read any newspaper of that time,you will read the same word and description.Will you now concede the pont? I doubt it.That's no waffle Herlock,that's a challenge.I can prove that the circumstances alluding to Ellen Fisher was that needed to classify her as 'Unfortunate'.If Debra knows the history of Ellen Fisher up untill the time of her death,I would sooner she give you the details,then I cannot be accused of misleading or manufacturing information.If she will not or cannot,then come to me for the proof.That answers everything you have asked.
Mine isn't just a name on a document Jon.I have researched my family history.My grandmother and my lives overlapped by some years,so some information I received direct from her.So you have had my honest answer.

[Wickerman]

...
Everything you say Jon is true,'Unfortunate' can mean many things,which proves my arguement it doesn't neccessary mean prostitute.You question my great grandmother and my grandmother's mode of living.What if I questioned whether your mother was a prostitute based on the fact that some mothers prostituted themselves.Would you say I was justified.....

My Great Grandmothers were all born in the mid 1800's, they are just names on documents to me. If I am being honest I wouldn't have a clue about their lifestyle either after or before they were married.
Ask anything you want, I simply do not know.
So now, let me hear your honest answer...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Simple answer to all the above.Ellen Fisher was my Great grandmother.A Daughter was my Grandmother.If Debra has followed Ellen up untill her death,then Debra should have known why she became an unfortunate.Should have known her relationship to myself and my family.Do you Debra?Also Debra should be able to tell us Ellen's married names and the names of her daughters.Can you Debra.
So Jon and Herlock ,Debra should have known whether Ellen Fisher prostituted herself.Does she? Ask her.
Everything you say Jon is true,'Unfortunate' can mean many things,which proves my arguement it doesn't neccessary mean prostitute.You question my great grandmother and my grandmother's mode of living.What if I questioned whether your mother was a prostitute based on the fact that some mothers prostituted themselves.Would you say I was justified.
I suppose you will now say can I prove the relationship to Ellen Fisher.Yes I can.It is in public records.Debra can seccond that if as she claims,she has followed Ellen's life up unto her death.

Its Groundhog Day with you again avoiding responding to things that you have no answer to.

Point One.
Can you produce the evidence (not just your say so) that Ellen Fisher was labelled, in writing, as An Unfortunate. And by that I mean a noun and not just that she was ‘an unfortunate person.’ And if you can provide that (which I doubt because Debra has already asked and you’ve ignored her request too)) can you prove that she wasn’t a prostitute (and not just with your say so.)

Point Two.
Provide one, just one, written example where a man is describes as ‘An Unfortunate.’ Do that Harry and I’ll concede the point. But you won’t be able to. Why? Because to be called An Unfortunate is to specifically be called a Prostitute (which is impossible)

No waffle Harry. I provided lots of proper evidence in terms of Old Bailey transcripts which proved that every single time without fail that ‘Unfortunate’ (noun) meant Prostitute. Now let’s see yours.

Will you respond properly and provide evidence for a single thing that you’ve claimed?

Of course you won’t because you know that you’re wrong but you just can’t bring yourself to admit it.

[harry]

Simple answer to all the above.Ellen Fisher was my Great grandmother.A Daughter was my Grandmother.If Debra has followed Ellen up untill her death,then Debra should have known why she became an unfortunate.Should have known her relationship to myself and my family.Do you Debra?Also Debra should be able to tell us Ellen's married names and the names of her daughters.Can you Debra.
So Jon and Herlock ,Debra should have known whether Ellen Fisher prostituted herself.Does she? Ask her.
Everything you say Jon is true,'Unfortunate' can mean many things,which proves my arguement it doesn't neccessary mean prostitute.You question my great grandmother and my grandmother's mode of living.What if I questioned whether your mother was a prostitute based on the fact that some mothers prostituted themselves.Would you say I was justified.
I suppose you will now say can I prove the relationship to Ellen Fisher.Yes I can.It is in public records.Debra can seccond that if as she claims,she has followed Ellen's life up unto her death.

[Wickerman]

So lets take your claim Herlock,that prostitute and unfortunate was the same thing,and all unfortuntes took money in exchange for sex,because that is what you are implying.First tell me what was meant by being an unfortunate.We know what was meant by being a prostitute.What of the men and children who were classed as unfortunates.Were they prostitutes too?

We know what was meant by being a prostitute
It looks to me like you are in the same position, you seem to think "to Prostitute ones self" can only mean one thing, whereas in truth it can have a number of meanings, as with the term "Unfortunate", which may be intended as a social or moral criticism. Certainly, a person finding themselves on hard times can be "unfortunate", but also a professional person lowering his/her own standards of work for money can be described as "Prostituting themselves".
The beauty of a flexible English language.

[Wickerman]

What are you trying to prove Jon? Suppose all ten were prostitutes ,and it doesn't state that,does it prove all unfortunates were prostitutes?
Now take the case of Ellen Fisher,daughter of John and Sarah Fisher, of the village of Chisledon,in Wiltshire,born around 1840.She was an unfortunate,She was not a prostituute,nor did she turn to prostitution on becoming an unfortunate.Neither did her two daughters,and there were thousands of like cases to hers in England.Yes,Ellen Fisher was a real person,I can prove it.

Harry, because you "say" Ellen Fisher was not a Prostitute, does not make it a fact.
Prostitution was not limited to the big cities.

It appears you have placed yourself in the "unfortunate" position of being required to prove Ellen Fisher did not prostitute herself in some way or other.
Always assuming your statement is accurate.

[Debra A]

Now take the case of Ellen Fisher,daughter of John and Sarah Fisher, of the village of Chisledon,in Wiltshire,born around 1840.She was an unfortunate,She was not a prostituute,nor did she turn to prostitution on becoming an unfortunate.Neither did her two daughters,and there were thousands of like cases to hers in England.Yes,Ellen Fisher was a real person,I can prove it.

Harry. are you able to say where and when Ellen Fisher was described as an 'unfortunate?'
I have followed her up to her death in 1926.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What are you trying to prove Jon? Suppose all ten were prostitutes ,and it doesn't state that,does it prove all unfortunates were prostitutes?
Now take the case of Ellen Fisher,daughter of John and Sarah Fisher, of the village of Chisledon,in Wiltshire,born around 1840.She was an unfortunate,She was not a prostituute,nor did she turn to prostitution on becoming an unfortunate.Neither did her two daughters,and there were thousands of like cases to hers in England.Yes,Ellen Fisher was a real person,I can prove it.

Please provide the relevant evidence to show that Ellen Fisher was ‘an Unfortunate.’ And I don’t mean that she was ‘an unfortunate person,’ Harry. I mean that she was ‘an Unfortunate.’ Noun. Anyone can be described as unfortunate but it’s a different thing to be called ‘an Unfortunate.’

I suspect that you won’t be able to prove this. And just proving that she was a real person isn’t enough.

You are 100% wrong on this Harry. The evidence against you is overwhelming but you just can’t bring yourself to admit it for some reason. Why do you continue to defend a clearly indefensible position Harry? We’ve all been wrong at some point so there’s no shame in it. I’ve piled on the evidence and you haven’t produced a single provable thing apart from a dodgy comparison (which you refuse to verify)