Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[HelenaWojtczak]

Tabram seems to go in and out of fashion like bell bottom pants.

And when someone like me comes along fairly "fresh" to the subject, and has a scoot around ripperology just at the moment when she is out of fashion, that is what sticks in the mind.

Anyway, I am sort of glad that Tabram hasn't been completely discounted, because, obviously, I have mentioned her a few times in my book on George Chapman and would have less reason to do so if it were proved she was stabbed by two sailors, for example.

Helena

[sdreid]

Tabram seems to go in and out of fashion like bell bottom pants.

[John Bennett]

Well I must say, I am surprised at MT geting 52% of the poll, as she is not amongst the C5.

So, she's back in the running then?

Puts the focus back on George Yard Dwellings etc

Helena

I'm not in the least bit surprised. Out of all the potential non-C5 victims, she is the one that gets a lot of attention. She was certainly thought of as a potential Ripper victim for many years, pretty much up until Melville Macnaghten's memo was made public, thus creating what we today think of as the C5.

JB

[HelenaWojtczak]

Well I must say, I am surprised at MT geting 52% of the poll, as she is not amongst the C5.

So, she's back in the running then?

Puts the focus back on George Yard Dwellings etc

Helena

[sdreid]

I believe the consensus is that Tabram was killed by one man using two weapons.

[Wickerman]

Hi Helena.

I was under the impression that it has been established that Tabram was killed by two people with two knives.

Er, no!
Prettymuch every contestable issue is measured in Degree's of Probability, nothing is certain, hardly anything is proven, irrefutable, or settled.
'Tis why we have so much fun here...

Regards, Jon S.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Eek owing to a mouse malfunction I clicked on Tabram when I think otherwise. I hope I can go and click my proper choice.

I was under the impression that it has been established that Tabram was killed by two people with two knives.

[sdreid]

If it looked like a dagger wound then the bayonet idea came from the soldier sighting, I would surmise. Bayonets come in many styles. Some look like knives, some like spikes, some like tent pegs, some like chisels.

[Bridewell]

The 'BAYONET' could have been a dagger, it was just a different knife from the other wounds, not proved to be a bayonet.

That's my understanding too.

Regards, Bridewell.

[miss marple]

Bridewell,
Guess your right about MO, What I mean is the psychological motive behind the murders rather than the method of execution. He appears to hate woman and wants to humiliate them even in death by displaying their private parts inside and out. I intuit Martha as a ripper victim. I don't think he had sex with them, Catherine Eddowes had not had sex.

The 'silence' is significant because the inhabitants of George Yard heard nothing, or did anyone in Bucks Row, Hanbury St, Mitre Sq.
The 'BAYONET' could have been a dagger, it was just a different knife from the other wounds, not proved to be a bayonet.

Miss Marple

[curious4]

Tabram doesn't strike me as a Ripper victim - the ferocity, the stabbing rather than cutting action, suggest something different at work, at least to me.

The suggestion of two different weapons makes me wonder about a gang, as with Smith (maybe the same one). The emergence of "Jack" may then have put them off. I suspect that there was something

I'll probably be proved wholly wrong one-day.

Millwood is always a possible as an early "attempt" though the circumstances seem a little odd.

The other possibility is that, as Robin Odell argued years ago, JtR honed his skills on animals as some sort of "slaughterman" (Jewish or otherwise). which might at least have given him practice in throat cutting and keeping clear of blood spray. Odell is out of fashion and has been for a long-time, but the authors of my younger days gave a lot of thought to these killings and some imagination. (Mocked nowadays, even the mad midwife of Doyle and Stewart is an admirable attempt to think outside the box, IMHO.)

Phil

Hello Phil,

Why not a hunter? Or a farmer?

Cheers,
C4

[DVV]

Hi all
more and more, I consider Emily Horsnell (thanks again & again Debs) as a possible first victim.
Nothing here, since imo Millwood, Wilson & more significantly, Smith, are all JtR victims.
My own opinion is of course of little interest but to those who view Smith & Tabram as early victims : more attention upon Horsnell, please. Just logically.

[Bridewell]

MO

Martha was on her back with her skirt pulled up, legs open and displayed.
That is the MO, his display of the victims, not the same as method, method can change.

Miss Marple

Hi, Miss Marple,

Sorry, but I disagree. MO is the same as method. (Modus Operandi = Method of Operation). His "display of the victims" can be seen as part of the MO, but only part, not the entirety. - Apologies if I have misunderstood your point here.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

The Bayonet

If Tabram is a ripper victim, we have a much better sense of who the ripper was, no? Given that she was stabbed with a bayonet sometime after being seen going off with a soldier...

Hi Damaso

That Tabram was "stabbed with a bayonet" is not a given. The time between her going off with a soldier and being found dead is 5 hours (or 3 hours & 45 minutes if she was the body seen by Alfred Crow at about 3.30pm) - plenty of time for her to have met - and been killed by - someone else.

we have a much better sense of who the ripper was, no?

No is right in my view.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Damaso Marte]

If Tabram is a ripper victim, we have a much better sense of who the ripper was, no? Given that she was stabbed with a bayonet sometime after being seen going off with a soldier...

There was a time in my life when I accepted Tabram as a ripper victim, but these days I stick to the C5. I have to wonder where Jack learned to be so quiet, though. From the start this was a hallmark.