Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Prosector]

Happy to do so - as I'm a relative newcomer, how do I start a new thread?
Prosector

[Abby Normal]

I was not in any way saying that JTR could not have been a soldier although common soldiers were not noted for their anatomical knowledge and I believe, as a surgeon and an ex-lecturer in anatomy, that JTR had a profound anatomical knowledge (if you have a few hours I could explain why I think that). Also, in those days private soldiers did not get much leave to be out at night (Tabram's murder was a Bank Holiday which was different) so I doubt that a private soldier would have had the opportunity to be at large as often as Jack was in those three months. Don't forget that all army barracks such as the Tower of London and Wellington Barracks had only one way in and out, that is through the main gate and past the guard room. The nearest barracks to Whitechapel was the Tower of London and that is now and was then locked at exactly 10pm every night and no-one but no-one gets to enter or leave after that time, especially private soldiers. Of course he could have come from another barracks such as Wellington Barracks but that is 5 miles away and just as difficult to enter or leave unobserved at night.

Prosector

Hi prosecutor
Good post. I have often struggled with the question of just how much anatomy and or surgical skill the ripper had so by all means I too would love to see your ideas.

[Hunter]

Perhaps Prosector would be willing to start with one example and elaborate on it a little
... in a new thread of course.

[DVV]

I believe, as a surgeon and an ex-lecturer in anatomy, that JTR had a profound anatomical knowledge (if you have a few hours I could explain why I think that).
Prosector

Hi Prosector,

We're ready for the longest post ever.
Please, do explain.

Cheers

[Prosector]

I was not in any way saying that JTR could not have been a soldier although common soldiers were not noted for their anatomical knowledge and I believe, as a surgeon and an ex-lecturer in anatomy, that JTR had a profound anatomical knowledge (if you have a few hours I could explain why I think that). Also, in those days private soldiers did not get much leave to be out at night (Tabram's murder was a Bank Holiday which was different) so I doubt that a private soldier would have had the opportunity to be at large as often as Jack was in those three months. Don't forget that all army barracks such as the Tower of London and Wellington Barracks had only one way in and out, that is through the main gate and past the guard room. The nearest barracks to Whitechapel was the Tower of London and that is now and was then locked at exactly 10pm every night and no-one but no-one gets to enter or leave after that time, especially private soldiers. Of course he could have come from another barracks such as Wellington Barracks but that is 5 miles away and just as difficult to enter or leave unobserved at night.

Prosector

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Prostitution

And victimology speaks for itself, does it not ? - if I'm allowed a paraphrase.

Yes it does seem to. Although the more important aspect is availability. Prostitution may have no real significance. It's just one of those things that needs to be said. Rich West End ladies may have worked just the same. Maybe better even. It appears "JTR" didn't wish to be caught. So he prob knew better.

[DVV]

Seems to point to prostitution .

And victimology speaks for itself, does it not ? - if I'm allowed a paraphrase.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Isolde

I don't believe that Martha Tabram was JTR's first victim, I believe that Polly Nichols was. All of the canonical victims were first killed by slicing through one or both carotid arteries before being dissected to a greater or lesser degree. As a surgeon I believe that JTR had a great deal of anatomical knowledge and some degree of surgical skill whereas Tabram's killer did not. She did not die until a great number of stab wounds had been inflicted and there seems to have been no real attempt to target a vital structure such as the carotid artery or the heart which does not suggest much anatomical knowledge (assuming he didn't learn it all in the 23 days following her murder). The lethal blow was apparently the one that penetrated her breast bone (sternum) and entered her heart and that was inflicted with a different weapon from the other wounds and one that could have been a soldier's bayonet. Soldiers below the rank of sergeant who were off duty but in uniform were obliged to carry a military issue clasp knife and a bayonet which would fit very well with the two weapons used in her murder.

Prosector

Hi prosecuted
Good post but I disagree. You seem to be counting out that serial killers modify their mo especially from their first attempts. Most do not start with fully formed MOs but learn to change and grow.

And by the second part of your paragraph you seem to be implying that (and falling into the age old trap) that Tabrams murderer could not be the the ripper because he was probably a soldier. The ripper could have been a soldier ( or ex soldier). I don't understand why people keep making this mistake.Plus History has shown us that many serial killers have a military background.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

she was a neighbour and made clear that :

1: Ada Wilson, married or not, was living alone :

"I knew Mrs Wilson as a married woman, although I had never seen her husband"

2: "She has often had visitors to see her".... no comment.

3: The man who attacked her never knocked her door :

"Last evening she came into the house with a male companion..."

(Eastern Post, 31 March)

Very interesting. Thanks for that. Seems to point to prostitution .

[DVV]

Hi all

Timothy "Bayonet" Killeen or George "Lancet" Phillips ?
I can't choose between them.

Cheers

[Prosector]

Hello Isolde

Welcome to the boards...I think that's a pretty fair first post...you clearly recognise both sides of the Tabram debate, (which has been quite heated in the past).

Personally, although I too see both sides, like you, on balance, I think she just might've been a first try out, (and if she wasn't, then I'm damned sure there'd have to be another one somewhere or other!).

The two knives argument has been pretty heated too - but if for at least the first thirty eight wounds you think clasp knife (rather than what we would today call a pen knife) then you might find it a little more helpful.

As the Doctor seemed to think the final wound was the one that actually extinguished life, do you think he might've switched to a second knife out of exasperation that the first hadn't quite finished her off, or do you think he might just've stabbed harder so that the blade went deeper and the hilt/body of the knife damaged the flesh/bone differently?

I like your last paragraph. In that connection, have you tried adding together the listed wounds and comparing them to the total?

All the best

Dave

Hi Isolde

I don't believe that Martha Tabram was JTR's first victim, I believe that Polly Nichols was. All of the canonical victims were first killed by slicing through one or both carotid arteries before being dissected to a greater or lesser degree. As a surgeon I believe that JTR had a great deal of anatomical knowledge and some degree of surgical skill whereas Tabram's killer did not. She did not die until a great number of stab wounds had been inflicted and there seems to have been no real attempt to target a vital structure such as the carotid artery or the heart which does not suggest much anatomical knowledge (assuming he didn't learn it all in the 23 days following her murder). The lethal blow was apparently the one that penetrated her breast bone (sternum) and entered her heart and that was inflicted with a different weapon from the other wounds and one that could have been a soldier's bayonet. Soldiers below the rank of sergeant who were off duty but in uniform were obliged to carry a military issue clasp knife and a bayonet which would fit very well with the two weapons used in her murder.

Prosector

[DVV]

Hi Abby

she was a neighbour and made clear that :

1: Ada Wilson, married or not, was living alone :

"I knew Mrs Wilson as a married woman, although I had never seen her husband"

2: "She has often had visitors to see her".... no comment.

3: The man who attacked her never knocked her door :

"Last evening she came into the house with a male companion..."

(Eastern Post, 31 March)

[Abby Normal]

Hi Midnight,

It was certainly not a robbery case and Rose Bierman had no reason to lie.
The primary motive was to kill, won't you agree ?
She was stabbed twice in the throat.

Thanks for discussing these precanonical cases. They're so interesting. More than Schwartz' possible involvement in a cover-up, if you ask me.

Cheers

Hi DVV
Who is rose Bierman and how does she fit in with the Wilson case?

[DVV]

In regards to Wilson, I'm inclined to doubt that she was an earlier attempt as the primary motive seems to have been robbery not killing/stabbing/mutilation for the satisfaction of the murderer as in the other cases.

Hi Midnight,

It was certainly not a robbery case and Rose Bierman had no reason to lie.
The primary motive was to kill, won't you agree ?
She was stabbed twice in the throat.

Thanks for discussing these precanonical cases. They're so interesting. More than Schwartz' possible involvement in a cover-up, if you ask me.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby

Yes, I have also thought about Millwood being an earlier unsuccessful attempt given that her stab wounds were concentrated around the lower body and legs. Also, the attack seems not to have been witnessed by anyone and doesn't seem to have been a robbery ect.
The attack being on 25th February would also fit with the timetable of the others - but would her attacker, if he was also Tabram's and/or JtR, wait several months for the next attack?

In regards to Wilson, I'm inclined to doubt that she was an earlier attempt as the primary motive seems to have been robbery not killing/stabbing/mutilation for the satisfaction of the murderer as in the other cases.

Hi midnight
Good points. He may have made other attempts during that time we never heard about and or his work/personal situation did not allow for it and or he decided to lay low for a while (serial killers will do this).

In regards to Wilson. She may have made up robbery as a motive to the hide the fact that it may have happened during an act of prostitution because she did not want to admit to that. I Beleive she was single and living alone at the time. She also fits the pattern of being killed at the end of (or beginning of) the month. But your right, she is the weakest of the three as a possible victim of the ripper.