Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[babybird67]

I'll wait....

until British mothers get implicated before i get offended!

[Brenda]

Well, I for one am getting a little offended by all the American mothers talk. Way to lump us all into one big stereotype!

[Ally]

Both Kate's daughter and her sisters said that the boys were kept from her because of her drinking. So I suppose they were all misinformed as well. The daughter, avoided her because of her scrounging. But that's not evidence of anything. Nope.

And it really doesn't matter what awards Neal has won. He's biased on behalf of the victims. His research into them is fantastic, and his devotion to them is commendable. But it doesn't change the fact that he is biased in their regard and he goes out of his way to paint them in a way to garner sympathy for them with things that paint them in a good light being emphasized and things that cast them in a bad given mitigating excuses. Like the idiotic statement that the daughter apparently didn't feel the need to move away from her mothers scrounging until 2 months after she gave birth...like this is indicative of deeper feeling on the daughters part, when in fact, what woman hugely pregnant and having just given birth is going to want to pack up and move right away. Or that it was not just the final straw that her mother was scrounging while she was pregnant. He always attempts to soften the bad, and emphasize the good. That's bias. So your relying on Neal Shelden to tell you what you should think of the victims is as idiotic as your retarded tirade against American mothers and MCDonalds...

But of course, what else can we expect from you but completely irrational statements like that and arguments that aren't even in the same zip code as logic.

[Jeff Leahy]

LOL...You do notice that everything you posted regarding Kate's daughter related to her daughter trying to avoid her and her sons being taken from her because of her drinking right?

Yes everything that happened to her in the last two years after she had her sons taken away from her a man that clearly beat her black and blue

I see no reference to Kate changing what you call 'Dippers' that apparently appear majically on shelves in what you call 'malls' also poluting the planet.

So because Neal Shelden, who is, let's face it, completely biased on behalf of the victims doesn't actually use the words "bad mother" you assume that she wasn't one.

Would that be the same Neal Sheldon who won the 2007 services to Ripperology award?

Her sons were taken from her on excuse of her drinking. Her daughter avoided her because she scrounged for money. But nah, nothing in there at all about her being a bad mother.

No Ally that is a romantic invention of your sad imagination. We just do not know why the boys were taken away. Unfortunately the social services team must have let it slip through the net (Thats British Sarcasm)

As for Elizabeth Stride being a mother, yes, she gave birth to a stillborn daughter and a few months later was treated in the hospital for venereal disease. Hmm...think there was any causal relationship there? I wonder. She was a registered prostitute, who was rife with disease and became pregnant as a result. I can hazard a guess as to what her parenting ability would have been if the daughter had lived.

Ah right so now we are going to start condemning people for what we think they may have done had their children lived..

Well she may have cut the child into a thousand peices and eaten it..

She might have educated the child, taught it physics, invented the atomic bomb and droped it on Japan...

But that would just be ROMANTISISING wouldnt it Ally?

Pirate

[Ally]

LOL...You do notice that everything you posted regarding Kate's daughter related to her daughter trying to avoid her and her sons being taken from her because of her drinking right? And her daughter refusing to have anything to do with her because of her scrounging. So because Neal Shelden, who is, let's face it, completely biased on behalf of the victims doesn't actually use the words "bad mother" you assume that she wasn't one.

Her sons were taken from her on excuse of her drinking. Her daughter avoided her because she scrounged for money. But nah, nothing in there at all about her being a bad mother.


As for Elizabeth Stride being a mother, yes, she gave birth to a stillborn daughter and a few months later was treated in the hospital for venereal disease. Hmm...think there was any causal relationship there? I wonder. She was a registered prostitute, who was rife with disease and became pregnant as a result. I can hazard a guess as to what her parenting ability would have been if the daughter had lived.

[Jeff Leahy]

Kate v Mothers of America

The Victims of Jack the Ripper P22. “She also gave birth to a stillborn girl one month later. (Klas Lithner article about Elizebeth Strides History)

Elizebeth Stride was a mother.

contin:

P28. Little Catherine attended Dowgate Charity School in the City, and also earned herself the affectionate nickname of ‘Chick’. Big sister Emma Eddowes later described the young Catherine as a lively little thing, WARM-HEARTED and ENTERTAINING”

P32. From time to time Emma Jones saw her sister frequently and knew about her alcoholism. Catherine always cried when she met with her and said. “I wish I was like you. She occasionally left home too”

“The last time Emma Jones met with Catherine was in about Christmas time 1877. It was evident from her black eyes that she had suffered from Conway’s brutality. Eleven years later, Elizabeth Fisher also accused Conway of beating their sister.”

“That same year, the inevitable happened and Catherine and Thomas parted, the pensioner took his two sons with him and blamed her drinking habits.”

P35 “ Annie visited her mother around this time at the lodging house in Flower and Dean Street, and Grandmother Kate attended her daughters confinement a year later when Annie lived in Bermondsey.”

“her son William Philips born on the 10th August 1886, was only a week old. Annie said in 1888 that she choose to have nothing further to do with her mother because of her persistence in applying to her for money and that Thomas Conway kept the whereabouts of the two boys from her for the same reason.. However, Annie registered her son on the 26th October, again calling herself Catherine Philips whilst still living at the same address, so obviously she did not feel the need to escape her mothers constant demands until a good two months after the boys birth.”

“In 1887 Conway and one of his sons stayed with Annie for a time when she lived at 15 Anchor Street. Conway left on bad terms with his daughter”

P37 “After a time Annie Philips came forward, and with John Kelly and Eliza Gold, gave evidence at her mothers inquest.” (It was not mentioned that she was five months pregnant) A book called The News from Whitechapel by Di Grazia, Chisholm and Yost mentions that at the end of the inquest the jury presented their fees to Annie Philips. The funeral took place on the 8th October and was attended by members of the family and John Kelly.”

P38. Ref K.E.: “She was hard working and generous to her friends, very jolly often singing”

“Her retired Uncle Thomas eddowes aged 77 who also lived 1123 Moland Street Birminham, was reported in the Midlands Evening News on the 5th October. He had not seen Kate for at least twenty years, when informed of her murder in London. He was greatly affected by the news and died soon afterwards”

Well there it is. Having gone through the chapter with a fine toothcomb I cannot find one reference to Kate Eddowes being a “Bad Mother”

Clearly it is a tail of tradgity and hardship but there is no evidence that Kate Eddowes did not love her children. Indeed quiet the contrary.

If Kate is to be condemned as a bad mother then I say, by the same token, that every mother in the United States of America is A BAD MOTHER…

I see No mention of Kate Eddowes ever stuffing her children with McDonalds Burgers? I see no evidence of Kate Eddowes driving a gas guzzling car and slowly poisoning the planet. I see No evidence that Kate Eddowes encouraged her sons to invade Iraq and shoot innocent people. I have re-read everything I can about Kate Eddowes yet there is no mention that she ever encouraged her children to torture confessions out of people with different religious beliefs to her….

In fact in comparison to the women of the good old US of A Kate Eddowes appears to have been almost a paragon of virtue whose only real crime was to herself through her drinking. Almost every comment I can find suggests that she was a pleasant woman who wont have hurt a fly…while the mother s of America seem intent on nicking everybody else’s share of scarce world resources while not keep to there carbon emission quotas..

So if we put Kate Eddowes in her correct historical perspective

I’d say that was Kate Eddowes 1 Mothers of America 0

Pirate

[Ally]

So perhaps one of you would like to explain how you feel Elizabeth Stride was a bad mother?

You are an idiot aren't you?

And lets get to the nitty gritty about Kate Eddowes. Why is she such a bad mother? She may have fallen out with her daughter later in life but I seem to remember that the daughter attended her mother’s funeral and was highly upset about her mother’s death.

On those grounds I say Kate obviously did something right at some point and thus must have been a GOOD mother.

Well first, let's be clear. Kate had THREE children. What precisely is your evidence that her daughter ONE out of her three children, actually attended her funeral, because the newspaper accounts from that time make no mention of her daughter in the mourner list? And attendance at a funeral isn't really proof of anything. Maybe she was relieved the badgering woman was finally dead, since, there is evidence that her daughter repeatedly moved around so that she could AVOID her mother, who constantly badgered her for money. Children don't generally pick up and move to avoid a GOOD mother.

PS and lets get this straight , it is Ally that is doing the romantisizing here, the rest of us are working to the FACTS,

No. Ally is working with the facts, all the facts, and you are picking and choosing the ones that best represent your opinion. And the facts are you carefully selected the one victim who had no children, and one who the best you could come up with about her is that her daughter MIGHT have attended her funeral. That's really slim arguing there.

[Ally]

Don

you cant better than I rant, that's for sure, and I take any coinage, accepting of course the Yankee dollar.
You come from a solid core, that's for sure,
them who profit from deaths of whores.

__________________
You mean profit like you did with your published work on the subject of dead whores, titled after their killer, for coinage of all kind including the Yankee dollar? And it's nice to know you are finally admitting your grasping tendencies in accepting the Yankee Dollar.

[Jeff Leahy]

I’m sorry but getting back to the core argument (what you do or do not choose to feel about childmollesters in the 21st century is your own business)

However you have no evidence what so ever that all the victims of Jack the Ripper were bad mothers. (Most of you don’t even seem to be able to get the body count correct anyway)

So perhaps one of you would like to explain how you feel Elizabeth Stride was a bad mother?

And lets get to the nitty gritty about Kate Eddowes. Why is she such a bad mother? She may have fallen out with her daughter later in life but I seem to remember that the daughter attended her mother’s funeral and was highly upset about her mother’s death.

On those grounds I say Kate obviously did something right at some point and thus must have been a GOOD mother.

Did she have the same CHIOCE when leaving her sons as she would have had today?…NO

It was a choice based in the reality of 1888. Remember children were still used as cheap labour and left school at 14. You simply can NOT compare these women’s choices with those of a load of Fat Americans sat in luxury, burning up all the worlds resources and slowly destroying, our planet, while pointing their chubby finger at these women.

They were NOT bad mothers; some may have been mothers that did some bad things. But you have NO idea if, on balance, they did more good than bad…

You’re guessing, and that’s bad Ripperology. Either supply proof or shut up.

Pirate

PS and lets get this straight , it is Ally that is doing the romantisizing here, the rest of us are working to the FACTS,

[Cap'n Jack]

Don

you cant better than I rant, that's for sure, and I take any coinage, accepting of course the Yankee dollar.
You come from a solid core, that's for sure,
them who profit from deaths of whores.

[Brenda]

I'm still not sure "empathy" is being used correctly here. I was always taught that you feel "empathy" for someone when you know EXACTLY how they feel - because you've been there yourself. Example: if you used to weigh a lot but lost weight, you might feel empathy if you encountered a heavy person being harshly criticized for their size. You probably went through the same thing before and you know just how bad the current heavy person is feeling inside. However, if Kate Moss is also standing there hearing the same criticism, she is (maybe) feeling sympathy for the heavy person, but she really doesn't know EXACTLY how the heavy person feels, as she has been thin all of her life. She may not understand the level of self esteem issues involved.

However, if Kate Moss has been severely criticized in her lifetime, she may be feeling the empathy for the person having to endure the emotional pain of the harsh judgment. So, as Babybird pointed out, it DOES depend on the individual circumstance and perspective.

As far as the victims, I HOPE none of us here know exactly what it is like to be in their shoes, but you never know. I think most of us feel sympathy....which is a good thing, by the way. There's a big difference between a sympathetic person and a "bleeding heart". I think Allly is disliking the bleeding heart types that tend to romanticize the victims, and I don't blame her, it kind of gets on my nerves too. But it is possible to care about these women (and others like them) while at the same time realizing they probably wouldn't have been someone we would have necessarily wanted to socialize with.

As far as CHILD MOLESTERS...I sincerely hope nobody here can empathize with a child molester! However, a little sympathy is okay when you realize these people have something seriously wrong and/or missing inside their brains. But that would be another thread.....

[Supe]

A.P.,

Observation confirmed by your reply--your assertion is mere bombast.

Living in the LVP, eh? No wonder you are so dismissive of those who earn a living by writing as even pocket change must allow you to have a comfortable existence. I wonder, though, aren't merchants a bit suspicious of decimal coinage?

Don.

[Mr Chumley]

still going..contemplation of killing coldly in a detached way is hard to feel comfortable with, but its like taking that first drink of the evening..it just gets easier with practice

[Tom_Wescott]

AP,

You live in the LVP? So you're saying that child abandonment and abuse is the norm for you?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Don
that's a tad unfair seeing that I live in the LVP whilst you appear to inhabit some strange planet where the dissection of original thought results in meaningless cant.