Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[Jeff Leahy]

Stop trying to change the subject. This thread is now about the JtR victims. Stay on topic

[Ally]

And you know just to clarify, I think disability for people who are genuinely ill is a fine use of the welfare system. It's not these cases I was referring to any way. It was more like these:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3885661/Britains-generous-welfare-system-triggered-baby-boom.html

[babybird67]

that's ok Ally

i saw it in context afterwards and no offence taken, not that i took it (offence)if you HAD meant it personally.

I'm ill...i can't help it. More than anyone can imagine i wish i had my life back and could go to work and do the things healthy people can do. Sadly, one has to play the hand one is dealt, and my hand is made up of a two, a four and a couple of jokers i think! Still, as the Government is spending the grand amount of absolutely nothing on research into my illness, i am sure i can look forward to a cure someday soon...or is that never?

Bloody politicians!

[Jeff Leahy]

Well yes it is evidence of social justice of the period. But not a lot more. Everything else is your own twisted interpretation. Your romantic notion of what you believe to be the case from a 21st century perspective.

You see Neal Sheldon is a brilliant historian who clearly understands that a good historian does research into people lives and their social history and try’s to give incite from a learn perspective.

Where as you are just a sad old American half wit with an axe to grind.

To accuse Catherine Eddowes of being a ‘bad mother’ based on what little is actually known is just blatant stupidity. Her life must be viewed as a whole and in context.

Yes she was no Angel. But she was no demon either.

Clearly I said if you condemn her in this way (ie with a sweeping brush) then you must condemn everyone in this way, as almost no one (especially the mothers of America) is without guilt of some kind.

So why you choose your negative fantasy of events. I wonder about a women who clearly looked after her children why they grew up with a man who beat her black and blue, and didn’t leave them until they were almost old enough to fend for themselves. Indeed the grown up daughter clearly wanted her at the birth of her first child.

From a perspective what she did may have taken considerable courage..

However I do not know. Nobody knows because there is not enough surviving record to be certain…In the same way there is not enough record to condemn this woman as a BAD MOTHERS. There is NO record of Catherine Eddowes changing metaphorical nappies.

Stating the JtR victims were Bad Mothers is Ally Ryder opinion NOT historical fact.

Clearly my attack on the Mothers of America was meant as an Ironic mirror of your own poorly thought out historical reasoning and historical romanticism.

Pirate

[Ally]

So given the overall irony of this situation, I am guessing it's also true that Brenda is in fact a McDonalds stuffing, gas guzzling, idiot box for a babysitter crap American mother.

Brenda, you should be ashamed.


Editing in again: Dammit Brenda you beat me to it!

[Brenda]

I took it as Ally was just being sarcastic, no bad intent.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go stuff my kids with burgers and go cruise aimlessly up and down the highways.

[halomanuk]

Fine,if that is your genuine feelings and you have explained yourself to me then i accept that.

[Ally]

REad the post above that I edited. I had no idea Jen was on Welfare. I have never had a conversation with Jen about her being on welfare. It's not something that I would ask or would come up in regular conversation. So I was not IMPLYING anything.

I don't imply. If I have something to say, I'll just say it.

[halomanuk]

You and i know what you were implying,and Jenny explaining herself means she does too..

[Ally]

Jen said: I'll wait til someone makes an implication about Britains mothers before she got involved.

I made a generalization and said there ya go, Jen, inviting her to get involved. That's not making it personal.

Editing in: Just read Jen's post and figured out why you are all thinking this was personal: I had no idea that Jen was apparently on welfare, it was not directed at her for that reason, and it was merely a statement of generality. The fact that it is apparently true in this case, is just ironic, not intentional.

[halomanuk]

Mentioning a name makes it personal,not mentioning it generalizes it..

[Ally]

Barry,

I didn't get personal. I made a generalization about all Britain's mothers like Jen requested. A generalization about a group is by its definition, NOT personal.

[babybird67]

hi Ally

i wasn't always ill...i did work all the time i was well enough to, so did my other half. We paid NI contributions, so i have no problem claiming benefit now i am not well enough to work.

I'm not a perfect mum by any means; that holds true whether i am working or unemployed.

But i've not abandoned my kids; i've tried to teach them right from wrong' none of them smoke, drink or are on drugs. They are polite and helpful. Quite well-rounded i think.

I've made mistakes, and no doubt will continue to do so. That's the reality of the human condition. I'm happy with that.


Barry...thanks for your defence.

And i'm still not offended!

[halomanuk]

Dont get personal Ally,Jen hasn't done anything to you,and neither has anybody else from the UK.
Your fight is with Pirate...

[Ally]

Oh Brenda,

You know it's true. You can't be bothered to raise your kid like they do in Britain: on welfare and with full government assistance (there ya go Jen). So all you do is plop them down in front of the idiot box and stuff them with crap food all day. Oh and what was the other thing?..Right while you ride around in your gas guzzling SUV.


But of course, we all know that such generalizations about an entire group of people that aren't even in this discussion are the last resort of the dim when they have no real counter argument.

Like attempting to say that the very logical conclusion: a child born to a diseased prostitute is probably not going to have the best start in life, is comparative to saying that the mother was going to cannibalize the child.

Don't expect logic from Leahy. It's beyond him.