Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[John Bennett]

If I was a newcomer to these boards and saw this thread (and several others recently), I think I'd give 'Ripperology' a wide berth.

[Ally]

Richard,

I think pointing out that certain posters are morons can only help guide newcomers. However, if this thread is so off-putting, I heartily endorse your decision not to participate in it.

[Tom_Wescott]

That's the $39,000 question, Richard. It might be offputting to newcomers but it's the main reason a lot of us old hands stick around.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Whats this the slagging off thread?,
What is the motive?
I dare say it started of with good intentions, but i hate all this bickering, its so off putting especially for perspective newcomers, that have just joined, or considering becoming members.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

how many times? You can have empathy for the situation, without any moral comment at all on the person or their behaviours! Stop trying to make it emotional and ethical...it isn't.

You didn't actually answer the question. SO you could have empathy for a child molester? Yes or no?

And no, you can't have empathy with a situation, it has to be with a person.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Pirate Jack;88761]

Seriously Ally, you do this all the time. You take the lives of these women and compare them to your own life, I’ve lost count on podcast the amount of times you start…well me and my brother, when I was six..

Uh wrong. I have mentioned my brother ONCE when discussing waving a knife at someone. I have never attempted to compare my life with theirs. So don't exaggerate and don't make up crap that isn't supported by fact.

As you point out these women were no angels but to make assumption about them as mothers or wives or as prostitutes and compare them to your own experiences is simply bad Historical analogy.

I have not made a single assumption about them as wives or mothers. I have listed facts: that they abandanoned their children, that they had to be paid to take care of their sick children and their marriages broke up because of their alcohol use. That is making statement of historical facts, not assumptions.

Quite honestly your opinions of them are irrelevant but it is simply not the case that they bought their rendezvous with destiny upon themselves.

And once again you completely misrepresent the argument as being one that is limited to the causation of their death. No one has said that the way they lived their lives meant they deserved to die. WE are not talking about their deaths. WE are talking about their lives. I realize for people like you, who see them as nothing more than victims and only worthy of note because of how they died, this is a hard distinction for you to make, but we are not talking about their manner of death. Once again, for hopefully that last time and with the fervent hope that repetition can penetrate even the thickest and most obtuse skulls: We. Are. NOT. Talking. About. Their. Deaths.

Got it now? Can you try to keep up?

If you wish to sit in some form of divine judgment that is up to you. I have no interest, however I do believe that there is a responsibility to put there lives in context and for them each to be treated as individuals instead of being lumped into one miss-leading catch phrase…or constantly portrayed as ciphers.

You are the one who is lumping together in the perpetual victim category. YOu are the one who refuses to see them as individuals. So this is a really feeble argument you are trying to make here, considering it is what you are doing and saying shouldn't be done.

[Tom_Wescott]

I hope your not being homophobic Tom

Scared of a little ol' fag? Perish the thought! As for Ally, when did she 'pass judgement'? She just disagreed with the idea that these women had no control over their destinies. I completely agree, particularly in the case of THESE women who all came from better circumstances.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[babybird67]

Ally

So then you could have empathy for a child molester? Correct?

how many times? You can have empathy for the situation, without any moral comment at all on the person or their behaviours! Stop trying to make it emotional and ethical...it isn't.

[babybird67]

why thank you kind Sir

<curtsies>

Life would be boring if we all thought the same and there was nothing to argue about! Imagine the threads here.... "I think A..." followed by 300 replies all saying, "So do I."

Room 101 anyone?

have a good evening Tom (I'd put a smiley face here but the laughing ones look like they are mocking and the smile one looks like it is too smug....this is the one that most expresses benevolent wishes i think.... )

[Ally]

So then you could have empathy for a child molester? Correct?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hey, she’s called the ‘Black Pearl’ (no seriously my boat is called the Black Pearl) yesterday’s photo’s on facebook..I hope your not being homophobic Tom

Seriously Ally, you do this all the time. You take the lives of these women and compare them to your own life, I’ve lost count on podcast the amount of times you start…well me and my brother, when I was six..

I doesn’t work. It is the job of a historian to put these women in Historical context. And that simply means by definition that there choices were different and within those afforded them, their class and their time period.

As you point out these women were no angels but to make assumption about them as mothers or wives or as prostitutes and compare them to your own experiences is simply bad Historical analogy. Quite honestly your opinions of them are irrelevant but it is simply not the case that they bought their rendezvous with destiny upon themselves.

Meeting Jack the Ripper was simply bad luck, pure and simple.

And while as you say they had choices there choices were restricted by there moment in history. A good historian therefore has to try and put their lives in historical context.

If you wish to sit in some form of divine judgment that is up to you. I have no interest, however I do believe that there is a responsibility to put there lives in context and for them each to be treated as individuals instead of being lumped into one miss-leading catch phrase…or constantly portrayed as ciphers.

In short these women were real people, we can only try and understand what we can from historical record about them and from what we can glean from the historical record of the period they existed in as a whole.

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

That's a MUCH better and cooler sig, Birdy. Now, enough with the empathy talk. That's getting on my head. You girls need to fight about something new now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[babybird67]

there is no vitriol on my part

Ally, i am using the word empathy to mean understanding of the context in which someone finds themselves. It has nothing to do with pitying someone or saying, "Oh poor victim." It is less emotional than that.

It has no moral bearing or judgemental bearing on what they have done.

It also has nothing to do with exonerating or excusing behaviours.

[Tom_Wescott]

Jeff Leahy. That name rings a bell. Oh well, he's Pirate Jack to me. I'm not surprised he's the 'sensitive' type since he seems to want to find himself on a ship called the Gaylleon with a bunch of sweaty men. I'm afraid I just can't empathise with that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ally]

Tom,

You should have gone with "sweet old fashioned notion" line. More in line with the schmaltzy sentimentalism that takes the place of reason that's on display.